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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Whats Next After Dragon From Red????

Kemalettin Sert said:
Hope it wont be small as 5D.Think about mounting Cinetape remote focus etc. on 5D.
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You can always put a camera in a cage. You can't go smaller than its smallest size though.
 
Phil Holland said:
The smartest move Red made was dumping the idea of a 3K camera. Especially now that the dust is settling. Prior to the Scarlet announcement I was certainly one who voiced thoughts and concerns about a 2/3rds system. However, Jim puts it best:




At this point I don't know if we'll see new bodies and sensor designs that shoot under 5K. Though you can shoot with them under 5K for sure.
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I'm ok with something that isn't 2/3, but If I could buy some form of a RED that had something smaller than S-35/FF say 4/3 that shot 4 or 5K I'd be in heaven for alot of content. I see why they did what they did, but I still think a camera like this would sell like hot cakes.
 
Jeffrey Loewe said:
I'm ok with something that isn't 2/3, but If I could buy some form of a RED that had something smaller than S-35/FF say 4/3 that shot 4 or 5K I'd be in heaven for alot of content. I see why they did what they did, but I still think a camera like this would sell like hot cakes.
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Kind of, though logistically given what exactly 5K is on Dragon in terms of true format height a MFT (new format btw created by Panasonic and Olympus) is sort of pointless in many people's minds:




Which is why many APS-C and S35 shooter don't really "need" that format. MFT is real good for keeping cameras real small though and there are of course pros and cons to that.
 
My dream camera that I would buy is REDs version of the A7S. Give me a Full frame low profile camera that shoots RAW 4K and can see in the moonlight with 14+ stops of DR. And would want some high speed options.
 
Martin Weiss said:
For ENG applications, small sensors do make sense, as they yield a longer depth of field (and lighter lenses). When you have only one take with no rehersal, getting that extra leeway is what can save a shot.
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I feel like the increased sensitivity of a larger surface area and the ability to use a smaller aperture to get the same DOF kind of cancel each other out on most cameras.
 
Phil Holland said:
Kind of, though logistically given what exactly 5K is on Dragon in terms of true format height a MFT (new format btw created by Panasonic and Olympus) is sort of pointless in many people's minds:




Which is why many APS-C and S35 shooter don't really "need" that format. MFT is real good for keeping cameras real small though and there are of course pros and cons to that.
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Phil, I'm sure you've answered this before, but what resolution would it take to eventually get us to both FF35 and 70MM IMAX? 8K + something insane like 16K, respectively?
 
BrendanLeahy said:
Phil, I'm sure you've answered this before, but what resolution would it take to eventually get us to both FF35 and 70MM IMAX? 8K + something insane like 16K, respectively?
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Not totally an easy answer. Years ago we did some rather complicated tests to properly scan IMAX at "very high resolution", which took way too much time and money for about 12 seconds of footage. Ideally that would truly be in the 12-14K range. However, film is part of the equation there and there's complications with that.

In reality in reference to most 65mm 5-perf film scans Dragon 6K FF out resolves it. This comes down to pixels, glass, and grain really.

In reality once we get to 8K as a finishing format I would have a hard time "wanting" more than that for home and theatrical display, though I bet we'll go a bit further after 2025 perhaps. I see two growing trends that could influence that.

4K right now is rather wonderful in theaters and on screens. For many it's the goal. 4K digital delivery is really where a lot of question marks remain. Slowly but surely some of those are going away.

What Red has done very right is resolution and format relevance towards traditional film formats. Dragon S35 places 5K in the S35 3-perf format and that generates a rather nice and plentiful 4K finish. 6K gives us a larger format we can use in a variety of ways. As native capture or a in a multi-format capture device.

Whatever Red will be doing next I hope they lead on the resolution, format, color, bit depth, and dynamic range front. Mostly because now as much as they have been criticized for 4K+ it's a little bit humorous now with pretty much everybody making 4K cameras these days. My favorite are the old horn blowers trumping on about 1080p or even better those who trashed 4K and are now shooting it themselves. Ignore the wave and you get washed away is what I say. While there's certainly a massive market for 1080p content and delivery it's sort of ludicrous to bash 4K+ capture and in some cases delivery.

While 65mm is a big old chunk of a sensor size I see lots of other potential "along the way".

I've shared my thoughts and desires a few times with Red about what's next. They have been very, very good at listening to suggestions from many experienced DPs and industry folks as well as many of the suggestions made here on Reduser.

To those wanting a 4:3 sensor. You don't want a 4:3 sensor, you want a sensor that can window to the proper 4:3 or 5:4 format in relation to S35 4-perf for anamorphic shooting, though that's a format that has not been totally used that way for some time. The height of Dragon was very well thought out especially when you look at the Academy 35mm frame. With the current and general future display landscape we must look to the general 2:1 through DCI 1.9:1 aspect ratios as a baseline.


I personally know what I'm looking for Red to hit with their next sensor and feature set for stills and motion work. But we have a minute (couple years) for sure. Dragon is still very much "state of the art" and if history repeats itself Red is on a 3-ish year product cycle. Though it could certainly be argued a bit longer as there's still 2007/2008 Red Ones out there doing their job happily making 4K+ images.


I spent a bit of time with NHK when they were in LA a bit ago and their 8K system is well.... a monster. Red will make something obviously more production friendly whenever that particular time comes for sure.

It's nice to look ahead for sure. I'm as much as a day dreamer and industry investigator as anybody, but we still are scratching much of the surface of what Dragon 6K is all about.
 
I have to say, some paired down version of the Meizler Module that could make an Epic body more "studio", would be really interesting.
 
Phil Holland said:
As for what Red has baking in the R&D oven? Well a couple things. It's clear that Dragon is a developing story. Especially this week! Dragon is now and an ongoing digital cinema camera receiving various advancements as we move forward through time and space. I think it would be foolish for Red to discuss what's next as it's A. too early to announce a thing, B. giving competitors way too much information, and C. in the midst of a Dragon storm.
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It might be nice if Red went back to their original announcements and followed through with stuff like the Red Laser Projector, Odemax, the Meizler Module, and making the Redray Player more efficient in terms of encoding.

Interesting that VistaVision film still captured more image area than just about any digital motion picture format.
 
Honestly i love my epic. The only thing i would like is higher fps. Mayby 300 fps and 5k/6k. And lower compression rating in general for high fps. It would be rad to be able to shoot 5k 120 fps at 3:1 or so. Thats all that is on my wish list.
 
DJ Meyer said:
I'd love to see:

Full Frame sensor
Same resolution - bigger pixels / less noise / more ISO
More flexible DSMC configuration options
10GbE or Thunderbolt tethered shooting
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Agree, with a sensor like that and thunderbolt it could do 1000fps at 4k, it would be a Dragon HS
 
Ryan Sauve said:
I thought that was going to be a firmware upgrade for the existing Dragons, heh heh.
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We all really do hope it WILL BE... hahahaha... And hopefully soon...
A 6K High Speed CF Dragon on 1000 fps would be a paradise tool of multiple orgasms... :lol: hahahahha...
Maybe my next X-Mass present to myself...? Yes...? Or maybe a 2015 X-Mass present..? RED, are you listening...?
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RED people... we must catch up with the Phantom Flex4K 1000fps.... give us hopes...!!!
 
Another wish is for a forum email notification system that does links correctly. Clicking on the link in an email notification of a new post is always an adventure. Sometimes it takes me to the post as expected, sometimes to the start of the thread, sometimes to the point where i originally subscribed, sometimes a random point.
 
In my dreams ( no research into if this could ever work ) it would be cool for ( in a few years ) a full frame 8K camera with 6K Super 35 and 4K super 16. That way we could use stills lenses for future 8K broadcast, S35 for Cinema and old 16mm PL and even C mount for doco and 4K broadcast work. Red could also reintroduce the original S16 fixed lens scarlet and mini lens scarlets but with a 4K sensor and lower power consumption.
 
My math works out that a FF35 sensor (36mm wide) would have to be 9K to get 6K into Super-35 (24mm wide) and then Super-16 (12mm wide) would then be 3K. Unfortunately if you make Super-16 4K, then Super-35 would have to be 8K and FF35 would be 12K (which would require a 96MP sensor if the aspect ratio was 1.5 : 1.)

Which also shows you the problem with cramming 4K into small sensors, the sensitivity is not going to be very good.

It may be better to stick to 8K for FF35, which would work out to be 5.34K for Super-35 and thus 2.66K for Super-16 (which would be good for 1080P finishing.) Or my original 9K (FF35) to 6K (Super-35) to 3K (Super-16) calculation. Already that would be like a 24MP APS-C camera in terms of noise/sensitivity issues.
 
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