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What is the practical point of having a Helium 8K??

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Rich Miro

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What is the point of having a epic Helium 8k sensor to just crop all your footage to shoot slow motion? (can't shoot 60fps)


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be more practical to have a Gemini camera 5k?


Pros-
Smaller RAW files
no crop - 5k 120fps RAW
Low light beast
Bigger sensor

Same color science
 
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I'm struggling with this as well man. I think the Helium pluses are resolution based -- so for VFX work and the ability to punch in and maintain high(er) "native" resolution esp. relative to a higher resolution deliverables. However I find the noise kind of unpalatable as you crop helium under 6k even at 800iso -- so yeah, I'm having similar thoughts. However, because the sensor is a totally new technology I suppose we don't know definitively how color response / tonally etc. they compare.

Who else has a compelling argument for Helium over Gemini?
 
Rich Miro said:
What is the point of having a epic Helium 8k sensor to just crop all your footage to shoot slow motion? (can't shoot 60fps)


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be more practical to have a Gemini camera 5k?


Pros-
Smaller RAW files
no crop - 5k 120fps RAW
Low light beast
Bigger sensor

Same color science
Click to expand...


Have not shot them side by side. But if you got enough light and if the quality of the pixels are the same... one gives you a 8k image and the other a 5k image. If the 5k image is cleaner then sure its possible it will hold up as well if mastered to 4k. But if the helium gets all the light it needs it will due to the great downsampling deliver a pretty stellar image. So Horses for courses I guess. Helium is possibly better if you got light, Gemini if you don't.

Again have not tested Gemini so have no clue how it preform.
 
My method of thinking: Up until a year or so ago, 4k/5k was all ANY block buster movie needed from an epic and there was no 8k. So resolution is niche above 5k. But COLOR, CLEAN IMAGE W/ NO NOISE, and versatility?? I'd love a gemini. But my question is this: Is this a downscaled new helium version sensor or and upgraded dragon sensor. I'm really only concerned with having the best color, least noise in low light and best frame rates. If so this is a dream camera.
 
Uses with 8k:
- sharper 4k when you downsample from 8k instead of 5k. Big difference.
- can crop in post. Very useful almost like having 2 lenses.
- more room for stabilisation
- more pixels lets you do more clever post production for bringing out textures and details
- can pan in post and zoom
- can get longer zoom range by cropping, great for wildlife
- better for stills
- better for green screen work
- more future proof. 8k is coming

Downsides with 8k
- diffraction influences the image more. F/7 should show a tiny blurriness and definetly at f/11
- suffers more from limitations in lenses like chromatic abberation and lack of sharpness
- harder to focus. Red monitor shows 1920 but resolution is 8200!
- if you need slow motion you are forced to crop. Good for wildlife zoom but not wideangle shots. Especially Epic x Helium has only 30fps at 8k and 7k. 75fps at 6k though. This is the main reason people complain about Helium.
- helium has more noise at high ISO. Around 1.67 stops
- super slowmo at 4k 3k 2k will have less sharp image and considerably more noise since sensor crop is so small
- Weapon is twice as expensive
- Media takes more space but not as much as you would think. Around 20% more
- Requires faster computer to display
- almost no monitors are 8k and almost noone has them today
 
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AndreasOberg said:
Uses with 8k:
- sharper 4k
- can crop in post
- mote room for stabilisation
- can pan in post and zoom
- can get longer zoom range by cropping
- better for stills
Click to expand...

THIS^

I use reframing w 8k often, great for many things
 
I doubt 4k helium is sharper than 4k gemeni.

But Shure if you scale 8k down to 4k it might be sharper.

Without having shot with gemini, to me that camera triumps helium. Larger sensor at higher framerates and seams to have cleaner and and more accurate pixels. Helium still got out of gamut issuse that does not look as prominent on the gemini tests I seen.

But do proper testings as this is just based on the files i seen on the web.
 
Björn Benckert said:
I doubt 4k helium is sharper than 4k gemeni.

But Shure if you scale 8k down to 4k it might be sharper.
Click to expand...
That is what I mean't Björn. I'm sure at 100% crop Gemini is sharper.
 
Rich Miro said:
What is the point of having a epic Helium 8k sensor to just crop all your footage to shoot slow motion? (can't shoot 60fps)


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be more practical to have a Gemini camera 5k?


Pros-
Smaller RAW files
no crop - 5k 120fps RAW
Low light beast
Bigger sensor

Same color science
Click to expand...

It all comes down to your needs...

And what Adreas said:

Uses with 8k:
- sharper 4k
- can crop in post
- mote room for stabilisation
- can pan in post and zoom
- can get longer zoom range by cropping
- better for stills

And you can always put a speed mount on it when you want it to be closer to the Gemini.
 
i think the advantages of helium and monstro make sense for current owners, unless your low budget and could use the low light of gemini. i fall in the latter categorically but its fine, im going to try for a third red if i can swing it instead. i dont want to go lower res either, despite the geminis advantage in low light. it makes more sense to envision red like they suggested previously, as offering various digital film stocks. you get the large field of view VV model, the S35 normal model and now the S35 with extra height low light model. i think offering various models makes more sense then repackaging the identical sensor 12 times maybe? and keep in mind i own like 5 different form factors of what im talking about here lol


that being said, i really really want a gemini for myself. i shoot run and gun with no budgets and personal projects and the gemini makes a lot of sense for someone like me. but it makes no sense for the pros i know who have lighting budgets to expose on anything. they can get good 8k stuff and its always exposed properly
 
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Please answer: If I buy a Gemini, am I buying a upgraded Dragon sensor with upgraded dragon tech/color ect. or am I buying a upgraded (sort of) helium sensor that can see in the dark? My fear is that I'm somehow missing out on a helium color and highlight/DR advantage. If the ONLY difference is resolution, I'm going gemini. Please help.
(Reasons I'm going Gemini: I shoot the c200 at 4K60 RAW 100% of the time. I would bee shooting my new red in slow mo 100% of the time. I love shooting natural/low light. I usually work low budget stuff with no proper lighting crew, one man band ect. I'm constantly at 1600/3200 iso daily. C200 handles this with now problem. Time to upgrade for better slow more and real raw. So hoping that it's the Gemini and not Helium.)
 
John O. Hall said:
Please answer: If I buy a Gemini, am I buying a upgraded Dragon sensor with upgraded dragon tech/color ect. or am I buying a upgraded (sort of) helium sensor that can see in the dark? My fear is that I'm somehow missing out on a helium color and highlight/DR advantage. If the ONLY difference is resolution, I'm going gemini. Please help.
(Reasons I'm going Gemini: I shoot the c200 at 4K60 RAW 100% of the time. I would bee shooting my new red in slow mo 100% of the time. I love shooting natural/low light. I usually work low budget stuff with no proper lighting crew, one man band ect. I'm constantly at 1600/3200 iso daily. C200 handles this with now problem. Time to upgrade for better slow more and real raw. So hoping that it's the Gemini and not Helium.)
Click to expand...

Helium will look amazing when you supply enough light to the sensor. But high framerates and low light levels sounds more like Gemini than Helium to me.

RED has learned things as they go, and clearly this was the next step to their evolution. But I also think it'd be unfair to say that Gemini is an upgraded Dragon or an upgraded Helium - it's a different beast altogether.

For color, I can't make an accurate assessment until I've handled much more footage.

For DR, RED showed in their RED Tech video that the highlights are holding on better than even Dragon: https://youtu.be/xcKPupoLtKM?t=96
 
I still want to see a thorough, no bias test of color/noise between Dragon/Helium, but yeah, throw in Gemini too.
I want to see if I'm missing out on the party with my Epic Dragon.
 
No one done a side-by-side test of Gemini v Helium yet? Sup wit dat? Toss in Dragon with LL OLPF as well. Would love to see how much the needle has actually moved in the last 5 years. Run them at 800, 1600 and 3200iso with 400% windows for noise detail. For giggles: throw in a A7sII for a perfect 4 square comparison ;-)
 
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8k Helium LOVES lenses. Old ones. New ones. Cool ones. Weird ones. Shoot 8k with Summicron-C. Shoot 6k with old wide dodgy but pretty Cooke Panchros. No other camera does as good a job with as large an array of 35mm and S35mm lenses as the RED Weapon Helium.

Its easy to match cameras in post. Much harder to match any Optimo except the EZ line (nice glass!) with any modern prime on RED 6k for the old sensors or 8k on the new (or Arri 3.2k) due too the illumination falloff inherent in the Optimos. But on Helium - shoot 7k and have a great time.

Plus reframing, etc.

Lenses. Don't underestimate them.

Regarding low-light. Do you have a lighting budget? If you do, the Helium sensor is plenty bright. It is certainly not a dark sensor.

If you don't have a lighting budget then there are a host of other considerations that come into play here.

Gemini looks to be an excellent wildlife camera and also documentary camera and specialty situation camera for budgeted projects.

That 8k Helium is killer nice if you want to exploit a range of glass
 
Great post. Now I really want to upgrade from epic-x to Gemini so I can maintain that non-crop high speed FPS.
 
I'm curious what you guys are shooting where the greater crop for higher fps/slomo on Helium is a problem.

For sports, wildlife, etc. the crop actually helps with maintaining focus and it seems rare where you need ultra wide angle where the crop might be an issue.

Even for narrative it would seem rare that your high speed/slomo would be a problem with the crop.

Also there is only a 60 percent difference between 5KFF Helium and 5KFF Gemini so where you might use a 35mm lens on Gemini you would use a 21mm on Helium for the same angle of view and the same frame rates and you are using the sweet spot of the lens relative to chromatic aberration and distortion.
 
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