WHAT ARE THE ALTERNATIVES TO AN ADOBE RED WORKFLOW?

[Björn Benckert]

I enjoy Smoke very much. It's incredibly powerful and flexible. Beside the new and much improved editing interface, the learning curve of the advanced stuff, like CFX and Action is insane. Anyone, who hash't worked with Smoke/Flame for an extended period of time will find Smoke very intimidating.

But you have to consider that you do not find action or anything like the EFX node tolset that the smoke has in any of the other editing programs out there. And the normal timeline efx of smoke is pretty much at a better standard than the other has, and those are pretty straight forward. So in other words, you can get smoke, then watch a few tutorials and feel quite confident with editing. I know some avid guys would disagree with me when I say that smoke is a far superior editing program than avid. but I actually think so and I have used both for quite a bit, even though I used far more Fire than avid. And to me if you got to learn one, why not start using the real deal, that can do it all. No other has the grading tools that smoke has, or the composting or even the ease of editing. It allready works really nice in native r3d and it will get tons better as no others update their stuff at the same speed as Autodesk does. You have to consider, smoke on mac came out just a couple of years ago then it was a complete Rewirte from Linux Fire/Smoke, then now they did it again, and further more they are definitely going the BM route. The prices are falling like mad and I think soon Smoke will be available for free and Autodesk will start only selling dedicated hardware for it. And by doing so get a huge user base and still be the top dog from having the performance of the hardware... at least thats what I hope they do.. lol.

 

[robert browning]

But you have to consider that you do not find action or anything like the EFX node tolset that the smoke has in any of the other editing programs out there. And the normal timeline efx of smoke is pretty much at a better standard than the other has, and those are pretty straight forward. So in other words, you can get smoke, then watch a few tutorials and feel quite confident with editing. I know some avid guys would disagree with me when I say that smoke is a far superior editing program than avid. but I actually think so and I have used both for quite a bit, even though I used far more Fire than avid. And to me if you got to learn one, why not start using the real deal, that can do it all. No other has the grading tools that smoke has, or the composting or even the ease of editing. It allready works really nice in native r3d and it will get tons better as no others update their stuff at the same speed as Autodesk does. You have to consider, smoke on mac came out just a couple of years ago then it was a complete Rewirte from Linux Fire/Smoke, then now they did it again, and further more they are definitely going the BM route. The prices are falling like mad and I think soon Smoke will be available for free and Autodesk will start only selling dedicated hardware for it. And by doing so get a huge user base and still be the top dog from having the performance of the hardware... at least thats what I hope they do.. lol.

I've used Avid for years, then they switched to Final Cut at work. I looked at a few tutorials for Smoke, and I have to say that I would really like to learn it at some point. It does seem to be quite robust. I noticed a lot of the default editing commands are very similar to Final cut. I came from a world where everyone focused on one skill. It seems that that you have to know more & more these days. I think Smoke looks like the ideal candidate for these changing times.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Resolve 10 is adding a multi-layer timeline (MLT) and an "on set" tool (no idea about specifics) to their already popular grading toolset. If they can do a solid job with these additions, it just might be the answer you're looking for. While running Resolve in Windows requires some tweaking, it sounds like you're up to the task of getting the config right.

Cheers - #19

 

[shashbugu]

Smoke takes a solid six moths to get used to. It's really honestly not that difficult to learn. Just forget everything you know about the layer workflow ala AE. Working with nodes is actually simpler, and you can experiment and get more creative. Plus the pixel accuracy in Smoke's architecture makes selections, painting, masking, grading, keying etc a whole lot cleaner. I must commend Autodesk with their extensions and regular updates.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I have no idea why Avid binned Illusion, we had V6 of which there were only a few, single numbers I think that were HD machines. Id always thought the system that Parallax created and Avid took over was their best products. DS never really made the grade for long form.

There is no obvious attractive way forward right now for long form edit work. I like Autodesk product but do not like the company, perhaps Nuke would be a better bet. On product I do like is Resolve and have great respect fro what Grant has done with the product. Lets hope he has some ides about building an edit system that is open and friendly.

Agree, about reslove. I own an old Illusion license and think it was an nice try at the time. Resolve will probably develop into a nice grading/ editing program. But I think since it's quite complicated all ready they will have a big problem adding advanced compositing in there as well. The Foundry is on it's way with Hiero and Nuke, but and it's the truth, the only reason why you would ditch a smoke and get hiero/nuke instead is just the price... Autodesk know that and they just lowered the price on smoke to hold that market. So now when smoke comes for no money, nuke houses does not necessarily save that much if they got hiero as they playback, editing bay as the smoke comes for about the same dollars. And you do not sit and edit in nuke and it's also far more steeper learning curve for getting a project done in nuke compared to smoke. FCP users feel at home in smoke, not so much in nuke and not so much in resolve. So with that in mind I think autodesk will harvest most from this stupidity from both adobe and apple editing departments that happening right now. but yes many will download the free version of resolve, but learning a software just to grade makes things a bit more complicated. Smoke got the grading tools, editing and extremely good VFX tools, and has patent for most of them, and they shut down, or buy up, anything that comes close. They also own the 3D world with both maya and 3dsmax and can up the game if they want just by tossing in some of their 3D development into their editing programs.

I might be very biased but it comes for experience. As it is I probably spent more than half my life infront of discreet screens, and a lot of the other half I spent testing out other similar programs. I started out long ago, did some years editing on a turbocube, then 3 years of quantel editbox and Hal, I owned 2 avids, a Quantel Domino, a Cineon machine, and I had more Fires, Infernos, Flames, smokes and Flints than I can keep track of. I off course use FCP7 from time to time and I work around guys that use Nuke and before that Shake. I even used Shake when it was command line with no gui back in the days. Everyone of course need to judge whats good for them, but my advice as things are evolving, I think smoke is pretty far from a bad choice for right now and an even better choice for the future. And when I say this bear in mind I actually hate Autodesk more than most... I see them as evil drug lords and Im the addict.

 

[shashbugu]

As for Adobe I'm sticking to CS6 for a year just to observe the frequency and quality of the CC updates.

 

[shashbugu]

And when I say this bear in mind I actually hate Autodesk more than most... I see them as evil drug lords and Im the addict.

Lol haha ha ha,

 

[egon touste]

i just paid a subscription for lightworks (I believe its windows only).. its free, but the pro version (supports codec/red rocket etc) is a subscription of £40 a year.. seems a reasonable amount to pay

 

[Elsie N]

It does, but you lose all advanced codecs. Basically, $60 is for the advanced codecs, which are pretty much all of them
See for yourself, what you get or don't get for the money
http://www.lwks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=184

WHO ARE THOSE PEOPLE!!! I'd heard of Lightworks before but was satisfied with Adobe at the time and didn't really check them out. I think my new computer build is going to have Lightworks and Redcine X Pro 18 on it to see how it handles Dragon footage.

Maybe I'll also check out some of the other suggestions made here as well. But if this works the way it appears it will, I'll maybe do a one-light in Redcine X Pro, an edit in Lightworks, a trailer to send to some pro like (you) Jake, Bruce Allen, Mike Most and any or all the other pros on this forum and hope one or another will be willing to take on the job of doing a professional finish for a piece of the movie... assuming no budget for post. '-)

So, now that I've got post figured out, guess I'd better get back to working on the script. '-)

 

[PatrickFaith]

WHO ARE THOSE PEOPLE!!! I'd heard of Lightworks before but was satisfied with Adobe at the time and didn't really check them out. I think my new computer build is going to have Lightworks and Redcine X Pro 18 on it to see how it handles Dragon footage.

Maybe I'll also check out some of the other suggestions made here as well. But if this works the way it appears it will, I'll maybe do a one-light in Redcine X Pro, an edit in Lightworks, a trailer to send to some pro like (you) Jake, Bruce Allen, Mike Most and any or all the other pros on this forum and hope one or another will be willing to take on the job of doing a professional finish for a piece of the movie... assuming no budget for post. '-)

Nice thing about lightworks is that it supports all the newest RED color (it is only one I know of that supports today the monochrome epic). Lightworks also works in partnership with redcine-x (i.e. I do all my basic grading and formatting in redcine, i btw do my final edits from a dpx ). Another nice thing about lightworks is it is focused on editing, so is not burdened by all the other stuff ... so I think it is fairly easy to learn(not like the 7 classes i have taken on AE and still don't feel like i know what i'm doing half the time). So my main flow is: Redcine -> nuke/modo/realflow -> lightworks (then goe's to final post for color grading and sound, qa, etc ...).

 

[Elsie N]

Resolve 10 is adding a multi-layer timeline (MLT) and an "on set" tool (no idea about specifics) to their already popular grading toolset. If they can do a solid job with these additions, it just might be the answer you're looking for. While running Resolve in Windows requires some tweaking, it sounds like you're up to the task of getting the config right.

Cheers - #19

I think I'll keep an eye on this one as well. I'll check out the Lightworks solution first but if I see a hole in my workflow that I think this will fill, I'll see if it's a match with my skillset.

As I've referenced in another thread, http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?100212-DISNEY-DEVELOPS-NEW-METHOD I wish Disney would license their DuctTape video compositing method as a plug-in. It sounds easy and quick and for me anyway, invaluable.

 

[Elsie N]

Nice thing about lightworks is that it supports all the newest RED color (it is only one I know of that supports today the monochrome epic). Lightworks also works in partnership with redcine-x (i.e. I do all my basic grading and formatting in redcine, i btw do my final edits from a dpx ). Another nice thing about lightworks is it is focused on editing, so is not burdened by all the other stuff ... so I think it is fairly easy to learn ...

Patrick, That's encouraging for a new user to the app who isn't well versed in anything really, other than Adobe apps for post. Learning curves are a point of consideration when one is self-dependent on everything from the inception of an idea through exhibition.

 

[David Rasberry]

I've been playing with Lightworks since the first public Beta. The more I use it the more I like it. It accepts AE 3rd party fx plugins and the Boris line of FX products, but most of what I need is already in the base program. $60/yr supports development and pays for codec licenses and a built in basic titling function.
It has pretty powerful node based FX built in , including very decent grading tools, runs reasonably well on modest hardware using both GPU and multi-core multi-threaded processors.
Watch the introductory tutorials.
This is not a new untried product, it has been around for nearly 20 years and was built initially to run on dedicated hardware. It is a mature powerful editor that scales from free desktop app to heavy iron networked studio post facility levels with dedicated hardware console and collaborative team production support. It was developed to edit feature films.

 

[Paul Russell]

When is the x64 version of Lightworks coming out?

 

[jake blackstone]

Resolve 10 is adding a multi-layer timeline (MLT) and an "on set" tool (no idea about specifics) to their already popular grading toolset. If they can do a solid job with these additions, it just might be the answer you're looking for. While running Resolve in Windows requires some tweaking, it sounds like you're up to the task of getting the config right.

Cheers - #19

Resolve 9 already multi-layer timeline capable. They are adding a multilayer audio, that you can edit. The new Edit tab has a standard editor now, instead of old Conform tab. Said that, BM was very explicit, that they weren't trying to position Resolve as a replacement to a traditional editor. It is more of a finishing tool, where occasional editing may be required. Said that, I know some people who edit in AE
It wouldn't be a stretch to see in time Resolve developing more editing capabilities. I would love to see that, as this would pretty much eliminate conforming step altogether. Editor would just edit and pass the project to the finishing artist for grading and finishing. But it's nowhere near ready for that, even in v.10.
As far as on-set tool, among many new capabilities, Resolve will be capable to "live grade" BM camera feed. They demoed it at NAB.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

People seem to be forgetting that Sony Vegas handles R3D native editing in real-time and the Sony suite of creative apps is pretty darn good. When considering NLE software, in addition to Vegas, there is native support now with LightWorks and Edius. And several other tools out there can round out a workflow, some supporting native R3D. OTOH, the Adobe software dominates several segments of the market out there. This move by them is going to hit a lot of people rather hard. Funny thing is, most of the complaining comes from the independent or small class of users, or those who are not using the software on a large scale or don't have any need to own more than one seat. For someone who tends to buy a copy of the Adobe software and then not upgrade with every release, this new licensing kinda sucks. For those who continuously purchase every upgrade on one or two seats of the software, it's going to work out about the same. For those who have Volume Licensing or enterprise accounts, the move to CC is a total ball-breaker, yet I see very few of those users really complaining. Maybe it hasn't hit home just yet with the corporate finance people...

 

[Elsie N]

One thing I'm learning about the Lightworks software is that while you can import R3Ds, you cannot export R3Ds... say, back to Redcine X Pro in order to encode to .RED. That may not be a problem if Lightworks is able to adopt the .RED codec to output directly.

Does an EDL file pass back and forth without losing RAW status?

 

[Paul Toth]

There are a lot of good reasons that people don't like Adobe CC. For you, it might not make a difference, but it does for a lot of people.

1. The moment you stop paying the subscription fee - your files are locked. If you need to make a small change and re export something you have to pay $75 to do so.
2. There is no stable pricing - every time Adobe decides to increase their price you have a choice to either pay up, or have your files locked.
3. No flexibility - want to delay upgrading for a few months to save money? too bad!
4. Volume licensing went from allowing 4 suites to 2 suites

Will other companies follow adobe? Maybe. Depends on how severe the backlash is.

1. likely, but I doubt I will do that within the forseeable future. As a professional that makes my living doing this is the cost of doing business. But the time savings I get from the suite's integration, in general, more than makes up for the other issues.

2. I'm sure the price will increase over time, but generally I would think that Adobe's business model will take overall price into account. I guess that they could decide to dramatically raise the price... So far, this new pricing model, based on what I receive, is better than the upgrade pricing I had been paying so is cheaper in the long run.

3. True, but for me I like the constant upgrade, keeps me current.

4. While this currently doesn't affect me I can see why people would be upset with that, since it effectively doubles your costs.

I think that Adobe is testing the waters a bit. If the backlash is severe they will likely adapt to a 'blend' of some sort. Maybe they'll have a stand alone version but would allow opening of older projects, etc. And once they have figured out the model that makes them the most money and grows their marketshare then they will be happy.

 

[Guillaume Tisserant]

Lightworks. Yes, it is $60 per year with subscription, but just issues you a year serial without a need to "check in" once per month, it is open source, platform agnostic and supports pretty much any type of formats.

EditShare say LightWorks will be Open Source since 2010, but they are not Open Source. Source of Lightworks are still not public.

 

[jake blackstone]

One thing I'm learning about the Lightworks software is that while you can import R3Ds, you cannot export R3Ds... say, back to Redcine X Pro in order to encode to .RED. That may not be a problem if Lightworks is able to adopt the .RED codec to output directly.

Does an EDL file pass back and forth without losing RAW status?

No software can do that. Resolve can export trimmed R3D in the timeline, but that's about it. Once R3D is debayered, you can't go back.