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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

WHAT ARE THE ALTERNATIVES TO AN ADOBE RED WORKFLOW?

Elsie N

Elsie N

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What I'm looking for are suggestions for apps that work with R3D files natively and alone or in conjunction with other apps to get similar results to Adobe R3D workflows. Also, if you have it, a ballpark cost comparison with the two approaches.

I wouldn't mind including something that is in the works though not yet native R3D capable. Dragon ready would also be a plus.
 
4K MADE EASY

4K MADE EASY

Elsie N said:
What I'm looking for are suggestions for apps that work with R3D files natively and alone or in conjunction with other apps to get similar results to Adobe R3D workflows. Also, if you have it, a ballpark cost comparison with the two approaches.

I wouldn't mind including something that is in the works though not yet native R3D capable.
Click to expand...

Elsie,

Apart from the change in the Adobe CS licensing model, just wondering why you're looking for an alternative to the Adobe CS 6 RED Workflow ... Adobe products work just fine with .3rd native files and CS CC will be even better.

If you are looking for an alternative to Adobe for a reason other than the change to subscription model, suggest you look closely at Apple's FCP X 10.0.8 .... we ran a 4K MADE EASY Training Day last month featuring the latest version of FCP X running over Xsan and it works terrifically well.

We're also running an Adobe 4K CS 6 Workflow Training Event this Saturday (May 25th) and another one next month based on CS CC.

Both the Apple to DaVinci Resolve 4K workflow and the Premiere Pro to SpeedGrade or Resolve 4K workflows have their pros and cons ... but both are extremely capable in the hands of a skilled practitioner.

If you already know and love PremPro, AE and SG you might be 'throwing the baby out with the bath water' by not migrating to CS CC ... on the other hand, Apple FCP X in its current iteration is also a very powerful tool ... it will also get better.

If you want to know more about RED 4K workflow using Adobe's toolset, try and come along to one of our training sessions - details below:

http://www.lumaforge.com/styled-2/index.html

If you want to know more about the power of FCP X you should check out Sam Mestmans' training guides in this other RU thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...-Workflow-All-3-parts-now-up-(and-at-NAB-too)

Any cost differences between the price of the actual software packages is almost incidental to the time and effort investment you may have already made in mastering any of the current toolsets.

Cheers,
Neil
 
Thanks Neil, but I'm looking for something I can adopt long term. I've used Adobe software so long I can't remember what the first version of Premiere I used was called. I'm PC centric so Apple only solutions aren't what I'm looking for. Still, that may be preferable for others so I hope any alternatives to the Cloud that give a mac user a choice get posted, as Mark has done.

I may end up migrating to the CC, even as it is now defined... but if something is in the pipeline from other companies that will embrace Dragon footage and will continue to support that, I would be interested in relearning my workflow now before I get trapped in a soulless subscription.
 
Look at Avid, assuming they can hang in there. If you're a one seat of editing type of production might Sony Vegas Pro trial a spin.
 
Elsie - you strike me as the type that would really like FCP-X; but obviously it it only Mac. Too bad, but could be worth considering a switch. :-) For the real low down, check out the many posts, here and elsewhere, of Sam Mestman.
 
I have been using the Adobe Creative Suite since CS1. I fully switched from Avid with CS4 and haven't looked back. Just recently I decided to try the cloud version and from what I can tell there is no difference to the way the software works, etc. I am a little unsure as to what everyone is up in arms about. I have updated my software every time, from CS4 to 5 to5.5 and then to 6. As it turns out the cost is comparable to what the cloud costs, and the cloud gives me way more, both in terms of features but also programs. So I feel like I'm saving money.

The software works exactly like it did before 'the cloud'. From the standpoint of the integration, in particular Photoshop, After Effects and Premiere, there's nothing else out there that can go toe to toe. I can't tell you how many hours I wasted in the past not only waiting for a render from AE but then also an import (and transcode) into the Avid. That is so long gone now as there is no render, imports transcodes, nothing to impede my valuable time.

In fact I'm going to wager that pretty much all software will be done this way within a few short years. Better get used to it!
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Elsie - you strike me as the type that would really like FCP-X; but obviously it it only Mac. Too bad, but could be worth considering a switch. :-) For the real low down, check out the many posts, here and elsewhere, of Sam Mestman.
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Terry, you are probably right in re: FCP-X if I hadn't been "raised" on PC computers. As things stand I own 3 PC towers and 2 PC laptops plus one more tower in the build stage dedicated for Dragon footage use. I actually use most all of them at some point or another either in my workflow and downloading or checking footage, so it would be a bit of a headache to switch platforms. Besides, in the last few years I've begun building (actually assembling is more accurate) my own machines and I like the freedom that affords.

The one thing that I've always been curious about though, is why Apple hasn't made their apps useable on a Windows machine? That would open up a BIG market for them.
 
Paul Toth said:
I have been using the Adobe Creative Suite since CS1. I fully switched from Avid with CS4 and haven't looked back. Just recently I decided to try the cloud version and from what I can tell there is no difference to the way the software works, etc. I am a little unsure as to what everyone is up in arms about. I have updated my software every time, from CS4 to 5 to5.5 and then to 6. As it turns out the cost is comparable to what the cloud costs, and the cloud gives me way more, both in terms of features but also programs. So I feel like I'm saving money.

The software works exactly like it did before 'the cloud'. From the standpoint of the integration, in particular Photoshop, After Effects and Premiere, there's nothing else out there that can go toe to toe. I can't tell you how many hours I wasted in the past not only waiting for a render from AE but then also an import (and transcode) into the Avid. That is so long gone now as there is no render, imports transcodes, nothing to impede my valuable time.

In fact I'm going to wager that pretty much all software will be done this way within a few short years. Better get used to it!
Click to expand...

+1 I have no problem with the new model and like having access to the whole suite.
 
Yes I agree with Mark,
Smoke is the best option. Not only is it a greater editor than all the rest. But when you learned your ways around the edting part you also have the most of the pristine tool set that up until smoke on mac only was available within Flame/Flint/ Inferno. And if you consider that a flame cost about 400k USD then the about 3000usd that you have to pay for a smoke license is quite a deal. But bear in mind, if you do not like the adobe CC thing and the way they treat their customers... Then you will probably not be so found of Autodesk Descreet customer support, upgrade fees, new releases, beta programs etc... It's amazing, in a bad way how they treat their clients.
Just an example, I have during the last 17 years spent about 5 million USD on their products, And then quite a bit on support contracts aswell. I also been in the beta team both for Fire, Smoke and flame. But I have not had support for the last couple of years, simply because I think it's not needed, we kind of learned hoe the stuff works now... Then when I find a bug in the program that corrupts the audio vault I call them up and ask to speak to one of their programers. It's quite urgent as I have a big presnetation for a huge client on a important job, and the audio is wack. I know enough to know that it can be rescued but I forgot how to do it... so I simply need to ask one question... Well their phone operator then ask me to sign a "per incident suport contract" and pay a bill for 1000€ before I get connected... So thats Autodesk, in a nutshell for you. Lol But and this is important, I honestly beliave that you need a Flame or a Smoke as a backbone for your post work to reach over a certain level of quality work, and even more important you need a good flame artist to go with it. It's a profesional tool but now, at the price the gear comes these days I would actually even recommend it for domestic use.

Further more, if you learn a little bit of smoke, you have better understanding of how the guys VFX houses actually work and when you need to sit in for post you have a great time picking up new workflows, and other trix of the trade.
 
Paul Toth said:
I have been using the Adobe Creative Suite since CS1. I fully switched from Avid with CS4 and haven't looked back. Just recently I decided to try the cloud version and from what I can tell there is no difference to the way the software works, etc. I am a little unsure as to what everyone is up in arms about. I have updated my software every time, from CS4 to 5 to5.5 and then to 6. As it turns out the cost is comparable to what the cloud costs, and the cloud gives me way more, both in terms of features but also programs. So I feel like I'm saving money.

The software works exactly like it did before 'the cloud'. From the standpoint of the integration, in particular Photoshop, After Effects and Premiere, there's nothing else out there that can go toe to toe. I can't tell you how many hours I wasted in the past not only waiting for a render from AE but then also an import (and transcode) into the Avid. That is so long gone now as there is no render, imports transcodes, nothing to impede my valuable time.

In fact I'm going to wager that pretty much all software will be done this way within a few short years. Better get used to it!
Click to expand...

There are a lot of good reasons that people don't like Adobe CC. For you, it might not make a difference, but it does for a lot of people.

1. The moment you stop paying the subscription fee - your files are locked. If you need to make a small change and re export something you have to pay $75 to do so.
2. There is no stable pricing - every time Adobe decides to increase their price you have a choice to either pay up, or have your files locked.
3. No flexibility - want to delay upgrading for a few months to save money? too bad!
4. Volume licensing went from allowing 4 suites to 2 suites

Will other companies follow adobe? Maybe. Depends on how severe the backlash is.
 
you COULD do avid if you wanted to, but be limited to a hd project at the moment. i'd personally would never cut natively in avid since their media management system with mxf is so incredibly robust, but just throwing it out there as an option.

new composer looks really slick though.
 
jake blackstone said:
Lightworks. Yes, it is $60 per year with subscription, but just issues you a year serial without a need to "check in" once per month, it is open source, platform agnostic and supports pretty much any type of formats.
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Jake, does the app keep working if you don't re-up the subscription?
 
Tom.Wong said:
you COULD do avid if you wanted to, but be limited to a hd project at the moment. i'd personally would never cut natively in avid since their media management system with mxf is so incredibly robust, but just throwing it out there as an option.

new composer looks really slick though.
Click to expand...

To me avid is good if you know it from before and just want to edit. But for finishing and working with RED material it's really not a great choice. I then find it even worse than FCP. Avid need to rewrite most of their stuff to come even close to where autodesk is at the moment. The batch/bfx workflow of smoke will take avid quite some time to get leveled with. They went quite far with Illusion and DS but as I see it they just could not do it.
 
Björn Benckert said:
To me avid is good if you know it from before and just want to edit. But for finishing and working with RED material it's really not a great choice. I then find it even worse than FCP. Avid need to rewrite most of their stuff to come even close to where autodesk is at the moment. The batch/bfx workflow of smoke will take avid quite some time to get leveled with. They went quite far with Illusion and DS but as I see it they just could not do it.
Click to expand...

I enjoy Smoke very much. It's incredibly powerful and flexible. Beside the new and much improved editing interface, the learning curve of the advanced stuff, like CFX and Action is insane. Anyone, who hash't worked with Smoke/Flame for an extended period of time will find Smoke very intimidating.
 
Björn Benckert said:
To me avid is good if you know it from before and just want to edit. But for finishing and working with RED material it's really not a great choice. I then find it even worse than FCP. Avid need to rewrite most of their stuff to come even close to where autodesk is at the moment. The batch/bfx workflow of smoke will take avid quite some time to get leveled with. They went quite far with Illusion and DS but as I see it they just could not do it.
Click to expand...

I have no idea why Avid binned Illusion, we had V6 of which there were only a few, single numbers I think that were HD machines. Id always thought the system that Parallax created and Avid took over was their best products. DS never really made the grade for long form.

There is no obvious attractive way forward right now for long form edit work. I like Autodesk product but do not like the company, perhaps Nuke would be a better bet. On product I do like is Resolve and have great respect fro what Grant has done with the product. Lets hope he has some ides about building an edit system that is open and friendly.
 
Elsie N said:
Terry, you are probably right in re: FCP-X if I hadn't been "raised" on PC computers. As things stand I own 3 PC towers and 2 PC laptops plus one more tower in the build stage dedicated for Dragon footage use. I actually use most all of them at some point or another either in my workflow and downloading or checking footage, so it would be a bit of a headache to switch platforms. Besides, in the last few years I've begun building (actually assembling is more accurate) my own machines and I like the freedom that affords.

The one thing that I've always been curious about though, is why Apple hasn't made their apps useable on a Windows machine? That would open up a BIG market for them.
Click to expand...

Yeah - doesn't work for you but I thought I'd bring it up for consideration. Good luck. The Lightworks suggestion might make sense.
 
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