Weapon VistaVision sensor

[Michael J Brennan]

A pertinent summary Jeff.

What is the target MB/s if 10k or 12k sensor were to maintain the existing compression ratios?





Mike Brennan

 

[Erich Roland]

You'd be surprised



Specifically some of the modern anamorphic solutions have a generous spec for optimal coverage.

Phil, this might be a good thread to share what you know about coverage of anamorphics vs VV. Ive seen other post about spherical coverage but not for 2x1 Anamorphic lenses. I hate to ask you for more work as you do so much, but at some point the folks will want to know.

 

[Antony Newman]

With G's improved demosaic algorithm - we are in effect getting more 'resolution' for each pixel going through the IPP2 pipeline.

For pixels not swamped in noise, I would suggest that an IPP2 8k R3D image is enough for our purpose.

Rather than create a VV sized Helium sensor, it would, I suspect, make more sense applying the secret
sauce that endows the (3.65um) Helium pixels with their low noise, to a Dragon sized (5um) pixel.

With a Dragon sized pixel having 1.9 times the pixel area of a Helium, I would expect
a Heliumified-Dragon pixel to have 1 stop less noise than Helium, or 2 stops less noise than
VV Weapon.

A VV sized 8k sensor of Heliumified-Dragon pixels could have the basis of a high-speed RED camera,
or a night-vision cinema camera...

AJ

 

[Björn Benckert]

Im guessing:
8k dragon sensors are simply no longer being made. So red can not order more of them.
6k dragon sensors are also no longer available so the only way to sell such is to recycle them from helium upgrades.

The above would make it quite unlikly that any large numbers of raven and scarlet w will sell as long as there is any demand for 6k weapons. Sure Ravens might be built from 6k dragon sensors with dead pixels outside of the 4.5k window. But if the above guess is right it does not make sense to sell away dragon sensors for as little as the raven price.

Then also Scarlet w can be made out of sensors that have pixels dead outside of the 5k window.

Helium sensors on the other hand seams to be high in supply but they are early in development and Red can not simply give 8k sensors to every one that is in line for a camera as some allready paid quite a bit for their scarlet W, weapon dragons etc. and toss out Helium sensors to fullfill raven orders would not land right.

So simply Im guessing that the number of dragons born is not really something red is in control over and the hack solution to that issue is to roll over to another sensor provider that are able to deliver in higher numbers and thats how helium was born.

I also guess the PANA VV's and the other few VV that are out there would simply be a small batch of Dragon sensors made at that size before the dragon tap was shut close and Im guessing it will not open again instead we will se other sensors in the VV size and above.

Again this is just me making whild guesses based on what I read in Jarreds posts and other threads in this forum. So just a theory at most. Would love to stand corrected on any or all of the above.

 

[Phil Holland]

Bad guesses.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Yeah, sorry Bjorn, Red is committed to Dragon 6K/8K VV for a bit of time. Not only because of Panavision but that is just what is....

Helium I believe will continue to develop and flourish but Dragon is great sensor technology and should not be shoved into the history books

 

[Tristan Houghton]

I'm hoping they make VV Dragon cameras available to buy in RED store once the orders have been fulfilled.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Yeah, sorry Bjorn, Red is committed to Dragon 6K/8K VV for a bit of time. Not only because of Panavision but that is just what is....

Helium I believe will continue to develop and flourish but Dragon is great sensor technology and should not be shoved into the history books

I really like the dragon sensor and have VV on order but it seams to be a shortage in the supply chain not only for VV but for raven and scarlet w aswell.

 

[Chris Jordan]

Im guessing:
8k dragon sensors are simply no longer being made. So red can not order more of them.
6k dragon sensors are also no longer available so the only way to sell such is to recycle them from helium upgrades.

The above would make it quite unlikly that any large numbers of raven and scarlet w will sell as long as there is any demand for 6k weapons. Sure Ravens might be built from 6k dragon sensors with dead pixels outside of the 4.5k window. But if the above guess is right it does not make sense to sell away dragon sensors for as little as the raven price.

Then also Scarlet w can be made out of sensors that have pixels dead outside of the 5k window.

Helium sensors on the other hand seams to be high in supply but they are early in development and Red can not simply give 8k sensors to every one that is in line for a camera as some allready paid quite a bit for their scarlet W, weapon dragons etc. and toss out Helium sensors to fullfill raven orders would not land right.

So simply Im guessing that the number of dragons born is not really something red is in control over and the hack solution to that issue is to roll over to another sensor provider that are able to deliver in higher numbers and thats how helium was born.

I also guess the PANA VV's and the other few VV that are out there would simply be a small batch of Dragon sensors made at that size before the dragon tap was shut close and Im guessing it will not open again instead we will se other sensors in the VV size and above.

Again this is just me making whild guesses based on what I read in Jarreds posts and other threads in this forum. So just a theory at most. Would love to stand corrected on any or all of the above.

I'm lost as to where you came up with this brotha. Pretty far off the mark. A lot of your guesses also suggest dishonesty by Red. Did you catch that?

 

[Björn Benckert]

I not saying anyone is dishonest and as far as I see it, RED has no obligations what so ever to tell us what cause the late deliveries. They offer full refund for those that paid and dont want to stand in line any more. Prepaying for gear is always a bit of a gamble but personally I think that paying early for VV is still a very good game to stay in. Espesially with the helium they let us have while we wait. Still cant help to think that there must be quite some unforseen struggles that caused these delays. Again I have no clue about the causes for the delays of dragon camera deliveries. But sensor shortage seams like a logical guess to me.

 

[Dan Kanes]

I think Samsung fab makes the Helium.

PS - I like Helium, and I like Samsung.

Semiconductor industry is in somewhat of a weird turmoil state right now. Lots of confusion about what is next, what processes, etc.

we are lucky to have the great sensors we do in the volumes we have them.

This stuff is hard no matter who you are, or where you are in the world.

 

[Joe Kleber]

I'm hoping they make VV Dragon cameras available to buy in RED store once the orders have been fulfilled.

Based on the current rate of delivery of VVs to the depositors on the public list (not counting the VV sensors that will be delivered to Panavision between now and then), you can expect that to happen sometime around November. ....of the year 2103.

 

[Elsie N]

Based on the current rate of delivery of VVs to the depositors on the public list (not counting the VV sensors that will be delivered to Panavision between now and then), you can expect that to happen sometime around November. ....of the year 2103.

That's just ridiculous!

Feb 2103 at the latest. '-)

 

[Milano Questa]

I think Samsung fab makes the Helium.

PS - I like Helium, and I like Samsung.

Semiconductor industry is in somewhat of a weird turmoil state right now. Lots of confusion about what is next, what processes, etc.

we are lucky to have the great sensors we do in the volumes we have them.

This stuff is hard no matter who you are, or where you are in the world.

Yup, probably Samsung.

My guess is Red will announce a VV Helium this year. 10k - 12k. VV Dragon will be scrapped for the public, with all sensors going to Panavision etc.

 

[Antony Newman]

I think Samsung fab makes the Helium. <snip>
Semiconductor industry is in somewhat of a weird turmoil state right now. Lots of confusion about what is next, what processes, <snip>.

I guess that means Samsung make 'fab sensors ;-)

Now that Samsung and TSMC have published their process intentions - Intel has had to start reanimating their own engineers. Intel's 3 year lead (that they were trying to intimate at their recent investor session) is in reality a 6 month lead on TSMC.
... Which is one of the reasons their profit margins are about to jump south 20% on latest gen processes.

<snip> My guess is Red will announce a VV Helium this year. 10k - 12k.<snip>.

I overheard another RU suggesting this might happen (given the yield complexities)

AJ

EDIT : What is next on the process node front is really a question of what is th next Cost jump in minimising a Transisor Cell - for the Metal Layers. The jump from double (SADP) to quadruple patterning (SAQP) is considered 'too expensive' by Intel and TSMC.

Seeking out the most resolution using optics (as summarised by IMEC) will result in Indential cells sizes.
TSMC 7nm risk (=test chip) production at the end of this year will be identically sized (i.e. Cell density) to Intel 10nm (due Q3 this year for Data centre chips and low power chips).

Global Foundry are expanding (to hopefully go into profit in 2018) and have 7nm (similar-ish to TSMC 7nm) in 2018/2019.

Samsung is dancing between 'we can match TSMCs' rollout schedule to - we can produce white papers on what we are doing. But without Apple feeding money into their pot, they will be concentrating on their current node - and probably joining TSMC 1 - 2 years later.

Verbose and in-depth overview of all the leading edge processes:
https://www.semiwiki.com/forum/content/6498-2017-leading-edge-semiconductor-landscape.html

Speculation & Actuals : (The CPP x MMP = X x Y size of the minimum feature on an SoC).
When Intel reaches 10nm & all the foundries are in 7nm -> it will be ~'level playing field'
https://www.semiwiki.com/forum/atta...1482771970-leading-edge-logic-landscape-2-pdf

AJ