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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Weapon VistaVision sensor

Helium is all I need. That said, I'm probably going through with the VV upgrade as soon as it comes up for my - now Helium - Weapon. They're so scarce and slow to come along that the demand is high. I could probably sell the 8K VV Weapon and buy a new CF Weapon Helium and walk away with an extra $30K in my pocket. I suppose I'll evaluate that once the time comes.
 
I'm definitely going to hang in there for the VV/full frame sensor. They are already trickling out, so that is a great sign. Also, I've already invested in high end VistaVision lenses and I think for cinematic purposes VistaVvision will clearly outperform any S35mm camera or lens, hands down. I was just disappointed that the VV are coming out so much slower than originally expected. I certainly wouldn't have paid the hefty VV upgrade cost originally just to upgrade to a Helium sensor. That said, I have faith in RED. Once the VV sensors are more available and paired with VV lenses they well blow away the competition (and be comparable to Arriflex 65mm cameras).

I know there are a lot of hurdles between here and there, but when Hollywood starts shooting all their films on 6x12 RED sensors and displaying in Imax theaters, then the theater going experience is really going to be brought up a level. Forget Digital 4K...from 2k masters... Forget 3D... 8K Imax displays from 16K 6x12 RED masters and correctly sized lenses are going to blow us away!

Best,

Wynn
 
Nick Morrison said:
Stacy could you post an R3D? VV R3D's seem to be the Holy Grail right now. Everyone want's it, and yet it's nowhere to be found.

THANKS!!
best
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NO!!! Just kidding. :) Here are two frames. One of the Seattle skyline and one from the DP Review wall, which I shot on Wednesday.

I am primarily shooting 8K HD (7680x4320). I have used the Otus lenses for everything. The 85mm on the skyline and doc interviews and the 55mm on the DP Review wall. I shot it with the 85mm last time I was at DP Review (A week earlier) but ran into the back wall once I got down to 4K HD. I was hoping 55mm would get me to 2K HD, but 3K HD was the last one I shot. I shot 8K HD through 3K HD in 1K increments.. This is so I can have some material to test image scaling and to also show oversampling benefits when UHD and HD are your final deliverables.

Shot another doc interview last night. (Joe Kane) I did one continues record on each mag. 1 x 1TB and 2 x 512GB. Joe did not stop speaking and I did not want to interrupt his train of thought.
 
Of curiosity, what was the price for the vv? Last time i looked I could not even find in on red.com
 
Joel Arvidsson said:
Of curiosity, what was the price for the vv? Last time i looked I could not even find in on red.com
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It was a $10K upgrade on top of the Weapon upgrade and only available for a few weeks after NAB 2015. They said when it goes on sale again it will be at least $20K. This, of course, was at NAB 2015. Given how difficult it has been to produce them, it may be even more.
 
VV upgrade can't be ordered anymore. It was originally $10K as an NAB special and only available to a very small group. They re-opened the orders after NAB for a brief time and then closed again. Jarred has said that if/when the option comes available again it would be at least twice as much, but did not actually give a price. He also said at one point that each VV camera should cost $250K. And at this point in time, I'm betting they are costing RED even more than that.

For those who did buy the VV upgrade, RED has offered the 8K Helium at no cost until the VV upgrade is available for your camera. You can opt to keep the Helium upgrade and they will refund the difference -- $10K minus the cost of upgrading from Dragon 6K to Helium 8K, or about $4500 I think.

There has also been some talk about modular or swappable sensor options. I don't know if the cameras are at that level yet and it seems the process would still involve a RED authorized service center. This wouldn't be something that most end users could benefit from, but larger rental houses that are also capable service centers could stock camera bodies with a variety of sensor options to configure for different jobs.
 
I've resigned myself to waiting for the vV sensor even though I have concerns.

My main concern is that a vV sensored camera may be old hat by the time I get it. Look at the Helium as reason to be worried. Technically, it is a better sensor than the vV by most accounts. The vV has size as its only advantage. It is already almost two year old tech.

To be honest, I'm not even sure if RED will make the vV after they fulfill all the open orders. If they are as costly to make and as customer off-putting while waiting as it seems, they would probably be wise to discontinue the model and concentrate on the Helium winner... or whatever else is just around the corner.

If I'm right, the vV will make a good collector piece as the last camera dinosaur. '-)
 
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Elsie N said:
My main concern is that a vV sensored camera may be old hat by the time I get it. Look at the Helium as reason to be worried. Technically, it is a better sensor than the vV by most accounts. The vV has size as its only advantage. It is already almost two year old tech.
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Have you seen Phil's recent comparison tests between VV and Helium? The VV seems to have clearly superior dynamic range, to the tune of at least a stop, maybe stop and a half above Helium. 8K Dragon VV also seems to have similar noise floor improvements over Dragon 6K whether DSMC or DSMC2. Am I misreading the test results?
 
Nicholas Austin Skinner said:
Have you seen Phil's recent comparison tests between VV and Helium? The VV seems to have clearly superior dynamic range, to the tune of at least a stop, maybe stop and a half above Helium. 8K Dragon VV also seems to have similar noise floor improvements over Dragon 6K whether DSMC or DSMC2. Am I misreading the test results?
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I'm looking at a bigger picture... the DXO results.

I think it implies that RED is becoming more Helium-centric than DRAGON sensor centric. That is, they implemented the IPP color science work into the Helium camera, plus they only entered the Helium sensor to DXO for testing... not the vV sensor.

That suggests to me that they will be spending research dollars on easier-to-build Helium technology going forward.

Will there still be people shooting on vV for awhile? Sure, just as there are people who are shooting film even today. But (in my estimation) most content is made hurriedly and good enough trumps perfection in most cases.

I'll say it again... for those who can't afford a Panavision solution the vV sensor is passé. Helium (+ whatever is coming) is avante-garde.
 
Yes... but you can shoot Ana X2 on VV. So there is a whole world of lenses / easthetic out there that are compatible with VV and not with 8k S35mm.

Pat
 
Patrick Tresch said:
Yes... but you can shoot Ana X2 on VV. So there is a whole world of lenses / easthetic out there that are compatible with VV and not with 8k S35mm.

Pat
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Which Anamorphic lenses cover the VV's larger sensor?
 
Erich Roland said:
Which Anamorphic lenses cover the VV's larger sensor?
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Patrick Tresch said:
wich X2 Anamorphic lenses cover Helium 8K?
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Patrick Tresch said:
Yes... but you can shoot Ana X2 on VV. So there is a whole world of lenses / easthetic out there that are compatible with VV and not with 8k S35mm.
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Remember, if you are looking to produce traditional 2.40:1 Anamorphic with 2X lenses you will be shooting 8K 6:5 "typically".

Helium 8K S35's 6:5 format at 8K is within S35 4-Perf Full Aperture, so many lenses cover there.

Dragon 8K VV's 6:5 format at 8K is actually bigger even than S35 4-Perf Full Aperture, so many lenses will cover, but there's a lot of 2X glass that wasn't even designed to cover Full Ap for that matter. So 7K or whatever might be used for optimal coverage.
 
You'll need 18,6mm to cover AnaX2. Only VV have this spec. The rest is essencially cropping the FOW of the lens. You could use AnaX2 lenses on Blackmagic Pocket if you want... Cropping the FOW of the lens is IMHO "counter productive" and probably optically not recommendable.


Phil Holland said:
Remember, if you are looking to produce traditional 2.40:1 Anamorphic with 2X lenses you will be shooting 8K 6:5 "typically".

Helium 8K S35's 6:5 format at 8K is within S35 4-Perf Full Aperture, so many lenses cover there.

Dragon 8K VV's 6:5 format at 8K is actually bigger even than S35 4-Perf Full Aperture, so many lenses will cover, but there's a lot of 2X glass that wasn't even designed to cover Full Ap for that matter. So 7K or whatever might be used for optimal coverage.
Click to expand...
 
Erich Roland said:
Any lens that covers super-35, which is pretty much all of them.
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You'd be surprised :)

Patrick Tresch said:
You'll need 18,6mm to cover AnaX2. Only VV have this spec. The rest is essencially cropping the FOW of the lens. You could use AnaX2 lenses on Blackmagic Pocket if you want... Cropping the FOW of the lens is IMHO "counter productive" and probably optically not recommendable.
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Specifically some of the modern anamorphic solutions have a generous spec for optimal coverage.
 
Nicholas Austin Skinner said:
Have you seen Phil's recent comparison tests between VV and Helium? The VV seems to have clearly superior dynamic range, to the tune of at least a stop, maybe stop and a half above Helium. 8K Dragon VV also seems to have similar noise floor improvements over Dragon 6K whether DSMC or DSMC2. Am I misreading the test results?
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The DR on the VV sensor is identical to the 6K Dragon sensor. It's not a new sensor, just a larger slice of it. The larger sensor dimensions and more pixels play into the overall look of the image. I'm torn as to which sensor I would prefer. At times I want the larger VV sensor for all of the benefits and visual attributes that come with the larger imager area. OTOH, the Helium is the newer tech and has similar overall performance to Dragon with higher pixel density, increased sensitivity and seems to potentially have better noise structure.

One thing that worries me is that by the time RED trickles through all the Dragon VV orders, it's going to be NAB 2018 or later and they will be taking orders for a VV sized slice of Helium. And with as long as the current VV program is taking, I almost wish they would fulfill their VV obligations with Panavision and nix all the others with a Helium VV plan. Allow us to keep our orders and deposits as a credit toward that.

The reality of it is though, VV Helium may not be any easier or quicker to produce than VV Dragon. So trading one for the other may not solve anything. Not only that, but we would also be pushing into 11.5K+ territory with a sensor that larger. Current media and camera internals are not up to the task, so that's yet again another iteration of the RED camera system.
 
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