Weapon thoughts

[Christoffer Glans]

So, after my little Aprils fool joke I have to say I'm happy to be a Weapon owner finally :thumbsup:
With a nice and even serial number as well haha. But I have some thoughts on the design for which I'd like some input.

The touch LCDs placed in front of the Top Handle would never really work on any shoot I've been involved with. Having it stuck on the top of the camera with little ability to turn the display will limit how you use the camera and how fast you do. Right now I use the old 7" monitor on the Red Arm, not because I don't want the tough LCD, but the touch is vastly less flexible than this. Having a bulky connector with a cable is not very attractive to me. Right now I also feel that the placement of the connector is rather odd, making the cable protrude out from the camera body. I'm also really hoping that there's a new red arm in the workings which connects to the front part of the camera, creating a true cable-less arm-setup for the monitor that is flexible enough for production workflows.

As for the top handle, I really don't understand the design behind it. Not only does it make it impossible to use Red bricks and some other batteries with the V-lock module, it blocks much of the flexibility for attaching gear on the camera. I know Wooden Camera has top plates and solutions, but comparing to the old top handle, it had everything needed, screw-holes everywhere, a front screw-hole on the handle which were good for the Red Arm and with the slider I could use a short 5-inch rod to clamp on any number of third party displays or stuff.

Another thing I realized is that the sound level of the fans are louder than they were on my Epic. I'm not talking about when it's idle but when shooting adaptive silent on recording. My Epic had the Fan2.0 and it had that bad "hum" with the front fans, but it was still quiet when pushing rec. The sound levels right now when recording are very high. I'm not sure if there's any settings that I've missed but I know for certain that this will be a problem for sound. On that note, the internal mics have a very low recording volume. Now, I'm not intending to use them for other than scratch sound, but even for that I would need them to gain much more in order to snap up the waveforms used for syncing.


I also miss the side handle buttons, I know that there's one coming, but I felt a bit limited now because I don't use the touch screen. But at the same time I really like not having it protrude to the side of the camera, slimming it down and the side screen with most of the settings in a kind of Alexa-style interface is really great so if I get the new side handle I would miss that instead hahaha
:tongue_smilie:

At this time I don't have a battery solution yet. As mentioned in other threads, the top handle-v-lockexpander-redbrick issue is I think a major flaw. If anything, the v-lock expander should have been designed to expand down like the Wooden Camera v-lock to make room for the battery. They even have the ability to change the position of it. For a mount worth less then half of the v-lock expander I think it's strange the v-lock doesn't have that ability.

On the software note, I think it's strange we don't have HD as an option for the ProRes. Right now it's only 2K (in my case because it's MG), but when shooting for television or HD screens I'd like my proxies to match the 6K HD aspect ratio. I usually do a lot of reframes and adjustments while editing and if the proxies doesn't match the aspect ratio of the R3Ds, that's a problem. At least HD for proxies. (I assume these things will come, especially with the MXF DNxHD codec).



Other than that I'm really digging it all :thumbsup: Much better possibilities and integrated wifi makes my phone go warm with fool control. Clean good looking images with the Standard OLPF at ISO800 is perfect.
I'm gonna try and solve my battery solution and then go out for some field tests, but I haven't made up my mind about getting either the V-lock expander or the Wooden Camera mount. Both have pros and cons.

But all these issues will find their solutions in time, so a really good job making a great camera (Epic) even better!!

 

[Bob Gundu]

You can record 1080 in proRes as long as your using HD ratios like 5KHD or 6KHD. it's still labeled as 2K but look closely to the actually resolution recording label.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Yep!

 

[Alex Bros]

I agree with your point about the handle. It really needs a few front facing 1/4 20's. Having the arm on the operator side of the handle is no good as it will loosen eventually no matter how much you tighten it (since you have it hanging to the left of the thread. Lefty loosey, righty tighty). I have to say, unlike a lot of people I do like having the monitor in the top/front position for handheld or sticks, just not really for shoulder mount obviously. When I have been using an arm, I would bolt it on to one of the holes on the top/front left of the camera or to the Lemo Adapter A on the top/front of the camera, which hasn't caused any issues but does kind of worry me as the lemo adapter is held in place by two tiny bolts. Since then I've gotten the WC Top Plate and haven't used my Lemo Adapters at all, I'm just holding onto them as backups.

I'm hoping somebody makes a little helmet that attaches to the front of the DSMC2 Top Handle via the threads on either side and gives you mounting points on four sides; right, left, top and front. RVZ has a mod that is kinda similar but is more about rod mounts.

And yes, when recording 2k ProRes from 6kHD (or any resolution/sensor size with a 16x9 aspect ratio) your files will in fact be 1920x1080 16x9.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

You can record 1080 in proRes as long as your using HD ratios like 5KHD or 6KHD. it's still labeled as 2K but look closely to the actually resolution recording label.

Good to know, as I said I wanted input since non of this is any "truth" it's my first impressions. Maybe a fix to the info so that it says HD would be good so not to confuse

Since then I've gotten the WC Top Plate and haven't used my Lemo Adapters at all, I'm just holding onto them as backups.

Do you happen to have the V-Lock from them as well? I've had a hard time getting feedback on if it's any good or not. Some people say that it's a risk having a third party gear for powering since it can damage the camera, others say that if the v-lock expander fails you are left without any option to power the camera since it's also the module for DC power. I'm not convinced either way really :/

 

[Milan Spasic]

As for the top handle, I really don't understand the design behind it. Not only does it make it impossible to use Red bricks and some other batteries with the V-lock module, it blocks much of the flexibility for attaching gear on the camera.

The new top handle is puzzling. Instantly obsolete as far as I'm concerned.
Cannot change the orientation or mount it anywhere else. Blocks the monitor and all the mounting points on top.

This is the only use I can think of:

 

[Phil Holland]

Interesting note about the fans. I can confirm that in Adaptive the DSMC2 fans are quieter than OG DSMC bodies. As for the other modes, I have no idea.

The new DSMC2 Top Handle is an Interesting thing as it's a bit frustrating for some, but also something that can be worked around if you desire to use it. Top handles in general are very useful during a shooting day with lots of setups. If you are going to spin the LCD constantly using the cableless displays during the day it's certainly being blocked a bit, but from a side or rear operation it's totally usable. If you are using the EVF it's not really much of a family tor there either.

OFFHOLLYWOOD previewed some interesting things yesterday. One of which is a Top Plate with electronic pass through for the DSMC2 Top Handle. This slightly raises the top handle and potentially gives the much needed clearance for some V-Lock Batteries. There's also the shorter Universal TOP Handle that has some additional mounting points.

I've gone rogue and focused on square-ish shaped power solutions like the REDVOLT XLs and Anton Bauer Cine V-Locks as it keeps the camera a bit more compact instead of boot shaped.

 

[Alex Bros]

I'm using the ET AB mount which I ordered as soon as I could and had in my hands about 4 months before I got my Weapon Frankly I wouldn't be interested in the WC power modules at all until they have the cable-free part worked out as one of the things I was looking forward to about Weapon was being able to have an onboard battery and a block battery plugged in at the same time, which I think any serious production camera should be able to do. One thing to note about the WC power backs in their current cabled state, is that there have been problems with the DC-in on the Base Expander with the last couple builds. It's been bugging me as I've been trying to go really small by throwing the battery in a backpack for extreme mobility.

In a maybe unrelated note, I'm really looking forward to the new EVF and sidehandle, but one thing I'm fantasizing about is a pistol grip and a little 3-lens turret with some small EF lenses (maybe my adapted Contax's) pre-mounted Bolex style. That would be so cool.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/KODAK-K100-T...890878?hash=item41a78cb5be:g:DDwAAOSwoudW-ZTV
(Yeah I know that's not a Bolex but it shows what I mean better than any Bolex images I found in my very brief search)

And if you've got a pistol grip, you may as well have an adjustable shoulder stock, now you're really shooting a Weapon
http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/vie...72.JPG,15010473.JPG,15010474.JPG,15010475.JPG

 

[jordan levy]

i hope wooden camera comes up with a cable-less pogo to pogo type mount to mount the monitors on the side as if it was an evf, like the new red evf mounting option. briging the 4.7 touch to this position will make it much more useful in every situation and already be in the right place for handheld.
but id like a hard mount, with little to no cable.
RED should of really had this out of the gate for an option.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Expect WC or other companies to offer handles with start/stop feeding into the Start/stop Fischer port. Then you can put the handle anywhere.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Don't know about the red lemo. But Most 90deg lemos you can take apart and turn. So you can have the connector sticking out any way you please. Another trick is to put the lemo pogo bridge on the top of the camera instead of using it on the side.

And if you don't want to mount monitor fixed without cable I recommend removing the two studs around the connecor on the handle. Then you can simply flip the handle forward. Works just the same that way with start / stop. And it's a reversible fix. in other words you can just put the studs back if you don't like it.

You seen this allready but I post it any way. I got my handle sorted works very well. in a few different configs Will also cut the original off by a third and make new threads on the back so it gets shorter but also allow me to have the alu block in the back for mounting accessories etc.

Syndicate weapon Skybridge03 by Björn Benckert, on Flickr


So I think I do like the one below but with shorter rubber part. Nice to be able to mount Wireless and AC monitor etc back there away from the front of camera.

IMG_0287 by Björn Benckert, on Flickr

more pics

https://flic.kr/s/aHskrA9WDY

 

[Mark Toia]

Tend to agree about the monitor and handle position.
I wouldnt couldn't use it in its standard confit either.

also the evf is getting pushed out further and further from the Centre line with mounting brackets being on the camera side, not underneath.
I'm sadly going to have to go Woodern cameras top section, which sort of suites our production requirements.

I'm sure The Red engineers are reading everyone's thoughts and redesigning as we speak.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

The Universal Handle has been on back-order forever, but I just got a notice last week that it was shipping. It should be here in the coming week.

I'm hoping it is the answer that will put the "top handle interference with battery plates problem" to rest.

I never really cared for stop/start on then top handle, anyway.

I don't like to spend the extra $150 to fix something which seemed like a design flaw from the get-go. Having the bulky top handle overhang the rear of the camera, while interfering with all the mount points was a real head-scratcher out of the gate. But for an extra $150, the Universal Handle looks good on paper - let's see how it is functionally. It's supposed to arrive Wednesday, wish it was a day earlier so I could take it to Taos with me....

 

[BrendanLeahy]

The new top handle is puzzling. Instantly obsolete as far as I'm concerned.
Cannot change the orientation or mount it anywhere else. Blocks the monitor and all the mounting points on top.

This is the only use I can think of:

I'd really like to know how much something like this influenced the new DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] bodies.

Honestly, the placement of the lemo-less connectors, Lemo A Adaptor arrangement, and top handle (with regards to monitor interference) all feel very strange. Did a lot of industry filmmakers beta test the design before it went out? I'd be curious to know how they shoot/setup the cameras.

My point is not to ream out Red on what's overall an improved body with a lot under the hood - I think we're all just curious about why things ended up the way they are.

 

[Phil Holland]

I'd really like to know how much something like this influenced the new DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] bodies.

While ^ that specific example might be a use case for the newer design of DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] the clearest actual functional improvement for all shooters is that these new cameras are faster to unpack, rig, and shoot. Also, it moderately eliminates a very common point of failure and frustration by taking cables out of your rigging, which is something people have desired as well.

Specifically the bigger gripe that I see is the combination of a Top/Front mounted cable-less LCD Touch while used in combination with the new DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] Top Handle (which may or may not have battery clearance issues for the setup you have). If you fit in the category where you can use the Top Handle, LCD, and don't particularly have any battery issues it's pretty clear that the camera is quicker to deploy. I've been working with Weapon since September/October of last year with and without the Top Handle depending on the style of shoot. For instance the Vodka spot last week didn't require the camera to be moved a million times, so the Top Handle didn't play a role for me on that shoot. Just bolt on the LCD Touch, wireless video, and rig up my lens/FF/MB setup and we were good to go.

It obviously isn't going to work for everybody's rigging/shooting proclivities, but after focusing on how the system is designed, it's indeed more efficient on set. At least for me.

Solutions to all of these gripes are:

- Use different V-Lock Batteries to clear pottential Top Handle bumpage
- Use the Universal Side Handle or a Top Plate that serves as a DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] riser to clear the battery (or even something like the Outrigger)
- Use the DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] Lemo Adapters to place the displays wherever you want (more or less the way things "were" with OG DSMC bodies)
- The use of upcoming longer Expanders/Modules clears the Top Handle/Battery conflict

 

[Christoffer Glans]

While ^ that specific example might be a use case for the newer design of DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] the clearest actual functional improvement for all shooters is that these new cameras are faster to unpack, rig, and shoot. Also, it moderately eliminates a very common point of failure and frustration by taking cables out of your rigging, which is something people have desired as well.

Specifically the bigger gripe that I see is the combination of a Top/Front mounted cable-less LCD Touch while used in combination with the new DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] Top Handle (which may or may not have battery clearance issues for the setup you have). If you fit in the category where you can use the Top Handle, LCD, and don't particularly have any battery issues it's pretty clear that the camera is quicker to deploy. I've been working with Weapon since September/October of last year with and without the Top Handle depending on the style of shoot. For instance the Vodka spot last week didn't require the camera to be moved a million times, so the Top Handle didn't play a role for me on that shoot. Just bolt on the LCD Touch, wireless video, and rig up my lens/FF/MB setup and we were good to go.

It obviously isn't going to work for everybody's rigging/shooting proclivities, but after focusing on how the system is designed, it's indeed more efficient on set. At least for me.

Solutions to all of these gripes are:

- Use different V-Lock Batteries to clear pottential Top Handle bumpage
- Use the Universal Side Handle or a Top Plate that serves as a DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] riser to clear the battery (or even something like the Outrigger)
- Use the DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] Lemo Adapters to place the displays wherever you want (more or less the way things "were" with OG DSMC bodies)
- The use of upcoming longer Expanders/Modules clears the Top Handle/Battery conflict

My old Epic had everything it needed to deploy fast. Just put on the display, a battery and shoot. Having a setup that's limited on deploy isn't in my opinion faster, it's just faster for one type of shooting. Whenever I've worked on longer projects we usually build the camera and leave it like that throughout production, so building isn't a problem and just putting on the LCD on the arm is as fast as starting up the camera. Right now, the biggest problem for me is how to solve the powering. I already own three Bricks, so I don't want to spend thousands on completely new batteries because of the top handle. I'm leaning towords getting the Wooden Camera V-lock plate, but I need to know how reliable it is and how well it works when doing things like updating the camera and so on. Is there a risk by getting that mount to having the camera incompatible after an update?

At this moment I haven't heard any word on how good the WC V-lock mount is, so I'm kinda stuck in moving forward. Yeah, I could buy some Redvolt XLs, but then I'm locking myself out of using other types of batteries when in panic mode needing power and I don't like how weak they are. As for the top mount, I'm probably gonna shelf it. Not because of the battery solution really, but because the modularity of it is very bad. It blocks more possibilities than giving. I'm probably gonna use my old top handle with the slider (seen in the images), that way I have a rod option and more screw-holes for different LCD setups.

Also, are you sure that the fan noise on adaptive is more silent when recording? I can hear it very loudly, which I didn't with my Epic. What's your settings for temperature and so on?

 

[Phil Holland]

Also, are you sure that the fan noise on adaptive is more silent when recording? I can hear it very loudly, which I didn't with my Epic. What's your settings for temperature and so on?

100% sure at 39-45 degrees Celsius on the sensor temperature in Adaptive Fan mode. Tested on two Carbon Fiber Weapons and two Magnesium Weapons last year.

Based on your quandary I would get either the Wooden Camera V-Lock plate OR a Top Plate like OFFHOLLYWOOD's that raises the height of the Top Handle a bit, which might solve that problem.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

100% sure at 39-45 degrees Celsius on the sensor temperature in Adaptive Fan mode. Tested on two Carbon Fiber Weapons and two Magnesium Weapons last year.

Based on your quandary I would get either the Wooden Camera V-Lock plate OR a Top Plate like OFFHOLLYWOOD's that raises the height of the Top Handle a bit, which might solve that problem.

You mean this?
https://shop.offhollywoodny.com/collections/aks/products/dsmc2-top-plate

Yeah, it would be nice if it works, but that would also need to be tested. Another thing is that it's not only the handle itself but holding the Weapon with the top handle when the batteries almost touch into it makes the area on the handle for holding the camera very small. It's the same issue with the universal handle, it's small and probably not the best way to move around the camera safely or when doing a take. I'm frustratingly (is that a word? ) out of ideas for this, there are pros and cons either way. If I get some confirmation that the Wooden Camera V-Lock is safe and stable that would be very helpful in my case. But I guess that Red can't answer that because of legal stuff. :sad:

 

[Phil Holland]

You mean this?
https://shop.offhollywoodny.com/collections/aks/products/dsmc2-top-plate

Yeah, it would be nice if it works, but that would also need to be tested. Another thing is that it's not only the handle itself but holding the Weapon with the top handle when the batteries almost touch into it makes the area on the handle for holding the camera very small. It's the same issue with the universal handle, it's small and probably not the best way to move around the camera safely or when doing a take. I'm frustratingly (is that a word? ) out of ideas for this, there are pros and cons either way. If I get some confirmation that the Wooden Camera V-Lock is safe and stable that would be very helpful in my case. But I guess that Red can't answer that because of legal stuff. :sad:

I just got mine. I need to close up this vodka shoot today, but I'll slap it on the camera tonight and grab shots for you.

The Wooden Camera V-Lock Plate is "safe", but as always it's a 3rd party accessory and anything is possible. I know at least 5 DSMC2 shooters using it though.

 

[Matthew J]

At this moment I haven't heard any word on how good the WC V-lock mount is, so I'm kinda stuck in moving forward.

The cableless v-mount plate isn't shipping yet, but hopefully soon. I don't see why it wouldn't be any good. It's just passing power to the camera the same way the ET plate is. If you are really concerned about the WC plate, just spend some more money and buy the ET plate. I do believe the WC plate has the advantage over the ET plate in that it can mount lower. Hopefully, I will be getting my WC plate in the next week or two and can post how it is, but I would assume it's just as top notch as their other stuff. Right now I am loving the top plate with the lemo's built in.

Also, are you sure that the fan noise on adaptive is more silent when recording? I can hear it very loudly, which I didn't with my Epic. What's your settings for temperature and so on?

Are you sure it's not because of where your face is and where the fans are? I would say it seems louder behind the camera than the Epic, but in front it's way quieter than the Epic-which is what really matters. Overall I would say mine is quieter. But again, the 2.0 Fans were way louder than the original Epic fans.