WEAPON Dragon is really Evolution or What?

[Mike P.]

This is why Weapon is in order.

Does that mean it's worth getting bent outta shape this early on? No... Truth is Jarred has answered your question a bunch of times -- they semi-announced it this early so that everyone who wants to go to Dragon from MX knows their time-limit.

 

[Andrey Blanco]

What would happen if every one made complaints every time a brand gave you more and better options?
...if you dont like the new camera (before it exits), dont buy it!
Options are great. If anything, I would love for RED to make cameras for lower end markets, I wont hold my breath, but complaining about moving forward seems rather stupid.

First is not a complain about the new better option or whatever Weapon is going to Bring Us (My Guess: ProRes, ND Wheel, High Frame Rates)

What I'm not in favor is make an announce this early when Dragon assembly lines are not even a year Old (Do you guys Remember Last Year NAB?). Make me think: First All this was already planed more than a year ago (this really piss me off ) or Second this is an early unplanned idea with not way to received anything until next year (Everybody know this thing need to be build, tested, get approvals, secure components, etc, etc)

I will be the first in line placing an order (If price I what I think would be) but I have the right to express when something don't seen right.

 

[Andy Roberts]

What I'm not in favor is make an announce this early when Dragon assembly lines are not even a year Old

I think it is IMPORTANT to comprehend that this is a body upgrade and not a sensor upgrade. Red is releasing on an "asap" schedule. New sensor done: Release. New body design done: release. That is good for the consumer.

The time-delayed release also allows for the upgrades to have tolerable pricing. New sensor AND new body at SAME time really is a new camera. This path is incremental, which makes it financially manageable.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I'm guessing the skull design is a bit more revolutionary then people are thinking. What I know some ASC's have publicly asked for is more componetized guts of the camera. For example with the DSMC the outside stuff could be added, but really you can't touch the inside of the camera (the brains inside the skull). What I am hoping for with the "weapon" word, is the camera kind of works like a glock gun, where you can break down and rebuild the weapon very quickly without even using screws. (i.e. a glock gun you can completely take it apart without unscrewing anything, clean it, then put it back together in literally minutes). It would be very revolutionary if you could take apart the new red camera, put a new cpu, or sensor, or water inside it then in minutes put it back together with very high mechanical tolerances.

In the 60's, i can remember people taking a camera apart to fix jams in a black bag, basically without screwdriver and just by touch. Getting back to this kind of concept with a digital camera would be revolutionary.

 

[Milan S.]

No matter how much anyone knows ... folks will be upset regardless.

It is so very ironic that people get upset over having MORE options ... MORE powerful tools ... MORE choices.

I don't think anybody complained about that, ever. I'm pretty sure you know that.

From what I understand, most people are upset because they are pouring more money into the system than they are getting out.
At some point, keeping up with the upgrades and new developments probably ceases to be a sustainable business model option for smaller productions.
Especially because of quick devaluation of gear (some of it you can't give away after only a few months) and low rental rates compared to other camera systems.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Especially because of quick devaluation of gear (some of it you can't give away after only a few months) and low rental rates compared to other camera systems.

With all due respect Milan - I'm not sure what planet you live on.

You have to work pretty hard to show me other camera systems that maintained value over RED. You mean like the SONY F65?

What RED gear are you buying that you "can't give away after only a few months"?

 

[Stacey Spears]

and low rental rates compared to other camera systems.

I think low rental rates is because the camera was not necessarily priced to rent. Movies on VHS were not meant to be purchased, only rented, which is why VHS movies often sold for $99. (Disney VHS excluded) DVD was the medium that broke the mold as it was priced to be purchased. You can thank Warren Lieberfarb for that move. Jim Jannard did the same thing for digital cinema cameras. There is a small window these days on getting great rental rates on a RED and that is when you have the new camera that others don't have. The window gets shorter and shorter with each new upgrade. I was fortunate enough to get some great rates on Dragon because I had it early, but I normally don't rent my camera to others. I was simply helping out some friends. I know many had hoped to make a living renting their RED camera packages. In the early days of RED ONE, some did very well.

I agree with Mark, someone will always be upset with a RED announcement. It's too bad and must frustrate the hell out of RED. You can tell they try very hard to make people happy. I am simply thankful that Jim was passionate about cameras and had the funds to do something about it. I am glad he, Jarred, and the other RED employees continues to be passionate about cameras. I hope they speed up the sensor development and we see new sensors every 18-24 months. Good enough, isn't!

 

[Milan S.]

With all due respect Milan - I'm not sure what planet you live on.

You have to work pretty hard to show me other camera systems that maintained value over RED. You mean like the SONY F65?

What RED gear are you buying that you "can't give away after only a few months"?

Quad Battery Module, brand new, could not sell for $500. Paid $2000+
The original 7" monitor, still have it because I couldn't sell it. Paid $3500, worth nothing.
Red drive... meh
Bomb EVF (non-OLED) that we waited for many months for, never worked right, made obsolete within few months.
SSD Mags....
I could go on...

You and I obviously live on different planets. No offense, just the reality.
It seems that some people are out of touch with the realities of running smaller productions.


I LOVE the images my Dragon sensor produces but there has to be a reality check.

 

[Milan S.]

I think low rental rates is because the camera was not necessarily priced to rent.

I never dry rent my gear. I'm an owner-operator. It's a part of my day rate.

 

[Russell Morris]

this is only a thought. but what if, the Weapon upgrade is a high speed upgrade? people that want that option will get the upgrade and it won't effect the current dragons rental/resale value. kind of like how Arri do it with the Alexa through firmware licenses, but Red do it through a hardware upgrade.
thats my thought only because it seems too soon to be doing another major upgrade from Dragon, when it was only last year it happened.

 

[Curt Pair]

With all due respect Milan - I'm not sure what planet you live on.

You have to work pretty hard to show me other camera systems that maintained value over RED. You mean like the SONY F65?

What RED gear are you buying that you "can't give away after only a few months"?

Here, here bro! And one of those movies he mentioned... Oblivion.. didn't they shoot a substantial portion of that film on Epic due to the issues with F65? Thought I read that somewhere!

 

[Gunleik Groven]

With all due respect Milan - I'm not sure what planet you live on.

You have to work pretty hard to show me other camera systems that maintained value over RED. You mean like the SONY F65?

What RED gear are you buying that you "can't give away after only a few months"?

Devaluation of tech investments is the reality of things.

And RED has historically held up very well, not at least due to the "upgrade value".*The R1 was insane in that respect.

Still people got angry when it was EOL'ed and RED sold the refurbs.

 

[Darren Streibig]

Im extremely excited to see what kind of images come from the newer generation of Reds. Although I am only a recent purchaser of the Epic, the images from every gen have always astonished me. In the end, I think its only realistic to search for a camera that fits the type of work that needs to be done. Sometimes it seems as if there is a hunt for the "final end-all perfect camera," where we all know that this will never happen and technology will always evolve. I for one sure don't feel like I have lost out because there is an Epic sitting in my case and not a Dragon or Weapon lol.

 

[John Lipsz]

Remember DRAGON owners, which I am one, you do not necessarily have to upgrade right away. The Dragon is a fantastic camera and I might be holding back for a while. However tempting this new WEAP{ON may be.

Cheers

 

[Eric Santiago]

Im extremely excited to see what kind of images come from the newer generation of Reds. Although I am only a recent purchaser of the Epic, the images from every gen have always astonished me. In the end, I think its only realistic to search for a camera that fits the type of work that needs to be done. Sometimes it seems as if there is a hunt for the "final end-all perfect camera," where we all know that this will never happen and technology will always evolve. I for one sure don't feel like I have lost out because there is an Epic sitting in my case and not a Dragon or Weapon lol.

Exact feeling when Im on a shoot and see the results with my Scarlet.

Due to my past experiences, this camera surpasses anything Ive ever worked with in both pre/post experiences

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Devaluation of tech investments is the reality of things.

And RED has historically held up very well, not at least due to the "upgrade value".*The R1 was insane in that respect.

Still people got angry when it was EOL'ed and RED sold the refurbs.

Yup. And that was really my point - which was that COMPARED to any digital cinema camera I know of - RED's value has held better - primarily due to it's upgrade program - which can only be noted as "extremely" generous when compared to SONY, ARRI, CANON, etc.

I can assure you that there are more than a few of folks pissed off that they just bought an AMIRA now that the ALEXA MINI has been announced at even lower price point.

If your camera system is making great images and you have all the features you need and want - you don't need to upgrade. It's .... an option.

 

[Zack McTee]

Upgrade Happy

Upgrade Happy

Jared, thank you on many levels. there are many people who can't handle the news of something new coming, but I'm glad to have some insight into my upgrade options. I personally find it incredible that we even have the option to trade-in and upgrade our cameras; and it would be foolish to feel negative emotions toward a company who is warning me that certain upgrade eligibility will eventually become unavailable.

Secondly, thanks for deciding to honor the lower upgrade price.

I'm looking forward to Dragon alone, and very interested to see the Weapon announcement.

 

[Milan S.]

Yup. And that was really my point - which was that COMPARED to any digital cinema camera I know of - RED's value has held better - primarily due to it's upgrade program - which can only be noted as "extremely" generous when compared to SONY, ARRI, CANON, etc.

I can assure you that there are more than a few of folks pissed off that they just bought an AMIRA now that the ALEXA MINI has been announced at even lower price point.

If your camera system is making great images and you have all the features you need and want - you don't need to upgrade. It's .... an option.

To be clear, I completely agree about the value of the camera brain itself and the extremely generous upgrade program.
I was talking mainly about the rate of speed that the Red accessories and modules become obsolete.
i have a pile of it collecting dust in my garage, dating from R1 onwards and it looks like I'll be adding to that pile soon.

Lastly, saying to people "you don't have to upgrade" is disingenuous. All of us in this business, big and small, depend on the market trends. It's not really an option, unless you are a hobbyist.

I'm sticking with Red because I love the images it produces and will upgrade as soon as possible, regardless of the name.
Telling people to go by an Alexa because they are voicing their opinion here is not nice. (Not saying you personaly, that just seems to be the trend).

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

To be clear, I completely agree about the value of the camera brain itself and the extremely generous upgrade program.
I was talking mainly about the rate of speed that the Red accessories and modules become obsolete.
i have a pile of it collecting dust in my garage, dating from R1 onwards and it looks like I'll be adding to that pile soon.

Lastly, saying to people "you don't have to upgrade" is disingenuous. All of us in this business, big and small, depend on the market trends. It's not really an option, unless you are a hobbyist.

I'm sticking with Red because I love the images it produces and will upgrade as soon as possible, regardless of the name.
Telling people to go by an Alexa because they are voicing their opinion here is not nice. (Not saying you personaly, that just seems to be the trend).

All good Milan - I did not mean any to cause any offense and certainly wasn't telling you to go buy an Alexa - I just thought your statement - "Especially because of quick devaluation of gear (some of it you can't give away after only a few months) and low rental rates compared to other camera systems." - was really off base and inaccurate.

 

[Milan S.]

We are on the same page, I think.

That said, do you want to buy some Quad Battery Modules? :cheers2: