Weapon compression - WOW!

[Jeff McCoy]

Why aren't more people making a big deal out of the massively improved compression of the Weapon?

I just did some research and made my own cut-down version of the compression charts based on my own Epic Dragon (with 128gb full-size SSD's) vs. the Weapon (512 SSD). Screenshots included. This is a major upgrade and I cannot believe people aren't making a bigger deal about it. I will be honest that I was on the fence about the Weapon, even though I planned to do it anyway, I was trying to weigh the improvements with the price - well the compression improvements are the kicker for me. I'm sold x1,000. Thank you to everyone at Red for all of your hard work. I think you guys will really be hard pressed to ever make a successor to the Weapon - it seems like the perfect camera.

 

[Stacey Spears]

I am happy that 8k @ 24p seems to do 5:1. Would be nice if they can hit 4:1, but that is a lot of data.

i think the HFR improvements are great!

 

[Phil Holland]

I literally know people upgrading because of this one feature. And it's it's pretty much at the top of my list as well.

On most productions I work on it's been ideal to shoot at a 5:1 to 8:1 REDCODE RAW Compression Ratio, which is standard for feature films and most 4K delivered shows now. 4:1 is commonly used for Anamophic as well. Let's just talk 5K. You can literally shoot 5K FF at REDCODE 5:1 from 24 through 60 frames per second and up to 96 fps at 8:1. This means there will be a minimal to no hit to what I'd say the "visual compression cadence" is. Remember lower REDCODE RAW Compression Ratio = higher quality footage.

This is a mega big deal for those of us shooting overcranked footage (every commercial ever). But it also plays a pretty big role in the 24/25 fps side of things. 2:1 and 3:1 are pretty much visually lossless.

The side of things I'm on is favoring quality above all else at the moment and I'm going to exploit this like crazy. 6K 3:1 is going to be sexy.

I'm very curious to see what 8K can get down to. We've see Jarred running around shooting 5:1 8K FF for 24 fps, but man if RED can get that to 4:1 I'll be a happy piglet.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Agreed. This is huge. And little talked about - especially for slow-mo.

 

[Phil Holland]

Agreed. This is huge. And little talked about - especially for slow-mo.

When my order comes up (presumably black gloved RED elves are forging carbon layers in the pit of a volcano as we speak) I'll shoot some tests at minimum REDCODE RAW Compression Ratios specifically for 5K, 5.5K, and 6K to get them online.

Same for ProRes 2K and 4K for those who want to play in that world.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

i dont find it amazing.
1TB Mini SSD is up to 300 MS/s even recent CFAST cards is up to 440 MB/s
Wish weapon had CFAST instead of Mini SSD we would get more SPEEDS.

 

[Akin A]

I wouldn't call it massive if you compare using 512GB Mini-Mags on both bodies. Just saying.

 

[Phil Holland]

I wouldn't call it massive if you compare using 512GB Mini-Mags on both bodies. Just saying.

There are productions out there who truly don't want to shoot higher than 8:1 if they can avoid it. I can hit 5K at 8:1 at that frame rate/resolution combo with Weapon. It's important.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

There are productions out there who truly don't want to shoot higher than 8:1 if they can avoid it. I can hit 5K at 8:1 at that frame rate/resolution combo with Weapon. It's important.

There are productions out there who wants to shoot Uncompress Raw also.

 

[Phil Holland]

There are productions out there who wants to shoot Uncompress Raw also.

Yep. Though, if shooting at speed and you can get 2:1 or 3:1 I wouldn't and don't have a hard time discussing the pros and cons of having a flexible compressed raw format.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Yep. Though, if shooting at speed and you can get 2:1 or 3:1 I wouldn't and don't have a hard time discussing the pros and cons of having a flexible compressed raw format.

Exactly! Thats why i love R3D. so much.Most flexible raw format ever.
My question is if Red is creating new media why not putting more future proof and faster options on the table? Even Cfast is more futureproof faster than Mini Mags.I dont want to switch my Side SSD (Mini) Module in next 2 years again with Mini Mag cards.Just waste of money imho.
Btw 8K is on our way!

 

[Phil Holland]

Exactly! Thats why i love R3D. so much.Most flexible raw format ever.
My question is if Red is creating new media why not putting more future proof and faster options on the table? Even Cfast is more futureproof faster than Mini Mags.I dont want to switch my Side SSD (Mini) Module in next 2 years again with Mini Mag cards.Just waste of money imho.
Btw 8K is on our way!

RED does a few things very "right" with MINI-MAGs. They have a proprietary method of writing to the media with specific firmware and hardware backing it up. On top of that there's a bit of headroom left it appears to allow for safe writes. And even on top of that they do some insane stress testing. I mean those things toast up like Hot Pockets and they survive happily.

This is a different method than standard CFast writes and if you've seen the Ursa "dubstep red screen" error that you get occasionally while using CFast cards you know where that bus stops with actual production work. I know a few Amira shooters with several CFast cards that have failed for some reason or another, likely due to the media, but who the hell knows. Not saying I don't trust them, just saying it's a different brand of reliability.

Nothing is bullet proof when it comes to media and media bays, but when the system is clean and running right life should be good. I've seen all sorts of nasty things though, like "hey my DIT spilled his Coke on my MINI-MAG" and the "hey we left the camera on the sand at lunch with no mag or tape blocking the media bay". I face palm sometimes when I get those phone calls at 3am asking why something has gone "weird". Nearly always some sort of oversight to external contamination it seems.

Much of our job deals with electronics and optics. As much as we can ride them rough, we need to treat them like a special lady and never forget that if possible.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Epic Dragon upgrade to me ws 99% about colors.
Weapon seems to be for functionality. Lower compression is a huge thing in that matrix.
CDL headers in the RLF prores files, would be another

 

[Jeff McCoy]

When my order comes up (presumably black gloved RED elves are forging carbon layers in the pit of a volcano as we speak) I'll shoot some tests at minimum REDCODE RAW Compression Ratios specifically for 5K, 5.5K, and 6K to get them online.

Same for ProRes 2K and 4K for those who want to play in that world.

That would be amazing Phil!

 

[Christopher*Seguine]

When my order comes up (presumably black gloved RED elves are forging carbon layers in the pit of a volcano as we speak) I'll shoot some tests at minimum REDCODE RAW Compression Ratios specifically for 5K, 5.5K, and 6K to get them online.
Same for ProRes 2K and 4K for those who want to play in that world.

Compression rate are promising, but not 300MB/sec - 6k 60 should be able to to do 6:1.

How does recording R3D + Prores effect compression ratio? Its not listed in the Media OP Guide

Look forward to seeing your weapon 6k/60 and 6k/72 compression tests

					DataRate	Dragon MiniMag	Record Rate	WeaponCF	Record Rate
Format	FPS	H	V	Bit Depth	(MB/Sec)	Comp. Ratio	(MB/Sec)	Comp. Ratio	(MB/sec)
6k
6k
6k
5.5k
5k
5k
4k
8k
8k

[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6144[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3160[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]698.94[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]174.74[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]232.98[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]60[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6144[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3160[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1,747.35[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]174.74[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]249.62[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]72[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6144[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3160[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2,096.82[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]174.74[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]262.10[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]60[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5632[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2948[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1,494.28[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]166.03[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]249.05[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]96[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5120[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2700[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1,990.66[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]165.89[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]248.83[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]60[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5120[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2700[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1,244.16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]155.52[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]207.36[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]120[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4096[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2160[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1,592.52[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]176.95[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]265.42[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8192[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4320[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1,274.02[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]254.80[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]60[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8192[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4320[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3,185.05[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]265.42[/TD]

 

[luigivaltulini]

Epic Dragon upgrade to me ws 99% about colors.
Weapon seems to be for functionality. Lower compression is a huge thing in that matrix.
CDL headers in the RLF prores files, would be another

+1

 

[Christoffer Glans]

There are productions out there who wants to shoot Uncompress Raw also.

The resulting image of a 2:1 or 3:1 compressed RAW when it's finished as a 4K master is on par with uncompressed RAW. Mathematically perhaps no, but anyone who can spot the difference raise your hands.

 

[Mark van Coller]

I have to say that the HFR compressions on Weapon are fantastic and it is the one feature that I am envious of.
We are currently working on a BBC Earth special destined to the 40m x 8m Orbi Screen in Japan http://www.red.com/news/bbc-and-sega-develop-orbi . The maximum recommended compression for this very demanding 6K WS format is 12:1 which seems quite high. I know they have spent a lot of time, effort and money doing their homework for these screens and if that is acceptable for this project I would guess that this compression is acceptable for most other purposes.

 

[Filip Orlandic]

Yep. Though, if shooting at speed and you can get 2:1 or 3:1 I wouldn't and don't have a hard time discussing the pros and cons of having a flexible compressed raw format.

X-Men: Apocalypse shoots REDCODE 3:1. (EPIC DRAGON)

 

[Phil Holland]

X-Men: Apocalypse shoots REDCODE 3:1. (EPIC DRAGON)

Bryan's a smart man