Weapon compression - WOW!

[Brian Merlen]

neat, though i too would love a non proprietary media option even if its not necessarily as reliable i imagine the cost savings could be worth it for some shooters, and on board recorders just can't do the same functionality... the trade in program makes it more reasonable though so its not that bad a deal to switch over or sell the mags on the open market... i look forward to weapons functionality but am happy it seems i have some time if i don't opt into forged

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

There are productions out there who wants to shoot Uncompress Raw also.

Yes. Based on pure FUD and lack of testing.

Most people don't even understand wavelet compression or even know what types of images drive the compression ratio to get "pushed" - or even what a compression "artifact" looks like in an RED R3d.

Of course, nobody wants to think about switching compression ratios during shooting - so you settle on one base ratio for your project - and MOST features and high-end TV go 5:1 - since you have work very hard - in typical scripted content - to have an image with enough high frequency detail to push the limits of 5:1. So ... even 5:1 is OVERKILL for 80+% of the shots in a "typical/average" narrative film - but again, depends on amount of detail in your frame - so, if you were shooting a period film with high detail wardrobe and set design or shooting in a jungle or the woods, etc. etc. - of course you want as low as you can go. But two dudes talking in a diner is NOT a high frequency detail image and doesn't need 5:1 compression to hold all the detail.

Fully uncompressed on XYZ vs. Weapon 3:1 ... no contest.

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

Hoping 8K weapon will do better than 5:1 at 24fps. 12:1 at 60fps sucks

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

I haven't done a whole lot of shooting in 6K with our Dragons. 5K is windowed on the sensor...does it make a difference shooting 5:1 in 6K vs. 5:1 in 5K visually? Aside from the volume of data of course.

We are prepping and it would be great to get some opinions.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

The resulting image of a 2:1 or 3:1 compressed RAW when it's finished as a 4K master is on par with uncompressed RAW. Mathematically perhaps no, but anyone who can spot the difference raise your hands.

IIRC, REDcode is mathematically lossless somewhere around 2.5:1.

 

[Gene Sung]

I haven't done a whole lot of shooting in 6K with our Dragons. 5K is windowed on the sensor...does it make a difference shooting 5:1 in 6K vs. 5:1 in 5K visually? Aside from the volume of data of course.

We are prepping and it would be great to get some opinions.

I'm curious about this as well, because isn't 5K a true Super 35mm FOV? Isn't 6K a bit wider than Super 35mm FOV?

 

[Phil Holland]

I haven't done a whole lot of shooting in 6K with our Dragons. 5K is windowed on the sensor...does it make a difference shooting 5:1 in 6K vs. 5:1 in 5K visually? Aside from the volume of data of course.

We are prepping and it would be great to get some opinions.

My first questions would be are you finishing out for a 16x9 aspect ratio or not?

I personally like to work a lot at 5K FF, 5.5K HD if I'm focused on created that S35 "feel". Just depends on what aspect ratio I'm targeting. Nearly all of my Dragon filming thus for with the 6K sensor has been 6K, 5.5K, and 5K resolution with different aspect ratios taken into consideration.

You have to test and see what feels right for your workflow and also take into account lens coverage and if you are reframing, cropping, or stabilizing as well. That should give you a pretty clear answer as to what you are looking for.

 

[Christopher*Seguine]

Hoping 8K weapon will do better than 5:1 at 24fps. 12:1 at 60fps sucks

Cant do 4:1 at 24fps - thats 318.50 MB/sec.

Maybe 11:1 at 60fps would be possible - 289.55 MB/sec - but they seem to be limiting the data rate to 265 MB/sec max, not 300 MB/sec.

 

[Gene Sung]

My first questions would be are you finishing out for a 16x9 aspect ratio or not?

I personally like to work a lot at 5K FF, 5.5K HD if I'm focused on created that S35 "feel". Just depends on what aspect ratio I'm targeting. Nearly all of my Dragon filming thus for with the 6K sensor has been 6K, 5.5K, and 5K resolution with different aspect ratios taken into consideration.

You have to test and see what feels right for your workflow and also take into account lens coverage and if you are reframing, cropping, or stabilizing as well. That should give you a pretty clear answer as to what you are looking for.

Hi Phil,

Thanks for you time as always. I was wondering if there is an image quality difference between shooting 6K and 5K in terms of things like - Alias, Moire, etc... Or can we expect identical quality between 6K and 5K at the same compression ration?

 

[Phil Holland]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for you time as always. I was wondering if there is an image quality difference between shooting 6K and 5K in terms of things like - Alias, Moire, etc... Or can we expect identical quality between 6K and 5K at the same compression ration?

All things being equal, say shooting 6K versus 5K both at 5:1, when scaling to a 4K finish you'll have slightly more detail and potentially a very slightly cleaner image. You really shouldn't see aliasing and moire on Dragon. It's extremely uncommon. It can occur, but not under 99% of shooting conditions.

Something to also play with if you are using REDCINE-X Pro as part of your workflow are the various scaling algorithms in the Export Settings. You can have some real fun there when deciding how to carve out your final look.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

My first questions would be are you finishing out for a 16x9 aspect ratio or not?

I personally like to work a lot at 5K FF, 5.5K HD if I'm focused on created that S35 "feel". Just depends on what aspect ratio I'm targeting. Nearly all of my Dragon filming thus for with the 6K sensor has been 6K, 5.5K, and 5K resolution with different aspect ratios taken into consideration.

You have to test and see what feels right for your workflow and also take into account lens coverage and if you are reframing, cropping, or stabilizing as well. That should give you a pretty clear answer as to what you are looking for.

We're shooting 2:40 with Cooke S4's. It will be a 4K DCP finish in cinemascope.

 

[Phil Holland]

We're shooting 2:40 with Cooke S4's. It will be a 4K DCP finish in cinemascope.

So if it was a "me production" using the Cooke S4s I'd likely shoot 5.5K WS or 5K WS and call it a day, I nearly never need to crop, reframe, or stabilize. If you want some flexibility for post stabilization and reframing though maybe give 5.5K or 5K 2:1 a try.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Thanks Phil. And yeah I agree, I don't see much need for reframing...I know what I want. But always better to have that pad in case it's needed.

 

[Michael J Brennan]

The maximum recommended compression for this very demanding 6K WS format is 12:1 which seems quite high.

Is this a BBC spec or the venue owner spec?
For acquisition?

In the link

When [sequences are] blown up to 40 × 8m we are right at the limit of acceptable resolution—images have to be uncompressed and super sharp. 6K RAW footage is a great starting point for this.

Would be very useful to everyone if you could flesh this out, big difference between uncompressed and 12:1??


Mike Brennan

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

Cant do 4:1 at 24fps - thats 318.50 MB/sec.

Maybe 11:1 at 60fps would be possible - 289.55 MB/sec - but they seem to be limiting the data rate to 265 MB/sec max, not 300 MB/sec.

Maybe they'll come out with a faster SSD for 8K Weapon? The specs are not finalized yet. I'd love to see 3:1 at 24fps.

I just can't imagine working with 12:1 on highly detailed scenes. Yes i'm a pixel peeper

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Compression rate are promising, but not 300MB/sec - 6k 60 should be able to to do 6:1.

How does recording R3D + Prores effect compression ratio? Its not listed in the Media OP Guide

Look forward to seeing your weapon 6k/60 and 6k/72 compression tests

					DataRate	Dragon MiniMag	Record Rate	WeaponCF	Record Rate
Format	FPS	H	V	Bit Depth	(MB/Sec)	Comp. Ratio	(MB/Sec)	Comp. Ratio	(MB/sec)
6k
6k
6k
5.5k
5k
5k
4k
8k
8k

[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6144[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3160[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]698.94[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]174.74[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]232.98[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]60[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6144[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3160[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1,747.35[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]174.74[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]249.62[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]72[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6144[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3160[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2,096.82[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]174.74[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]262.10[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]60[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5632[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2948[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1,494.28[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]166.03[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]249.05[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]96[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5120[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2700[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1,990.66[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]165.89[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]248.83[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]60[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5120[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2700[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1,244.16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]155.52[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]207.36[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]120[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4096[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2160[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1,592.52[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]176.95[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]265.42[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8192[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4320[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1,274.02[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]254.80[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]60[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8192[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4320[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3,185.05[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]265.42[/TD]

Aren't the files 16bit to hold enough stops in the linear raw file?

 

[Russ Fill]

The compression ratio is what I'm always having to juggle with while shooting slow mo on the game explanations on the Survivor TV reality show so this makes me super happy.
faster cleaner��

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Say you want to have a 4K release and want optimal quality and you have a large drive supply for storing your shots. What would actually be optimal for compression on either camera? I shoot at 5:1 or 6:1 as the "base" for regular 25p and goes down to 4:1 in 6K HD for complex details like a forest with a lot of leaves etc.

What's the actual benefit for using 4:1 on a "regular shot" medium detail? Compared to a usual 5:1 or 6:1 shot?

 

[Phil Holland]

What's the actual benefit for using 4:1 on a "regular shot" medium detail? Compared to a usual 5:1 or 6:1 shot?

Well the simple answer is less compression. The difference between 4:1 and 5:1 isn't "huge" like say the difference between 5:1 and 12:1.

If space isn't a concern, or the workflow concerns that come with having thicker and bigger file are also not a worry, no reason not to shoot in 4:1.

5:1 for 6K-5K has been the "gold standard" on feature film productions for a long time as it balances out a very high visual quality as well as a "high workable quality" image. This provides the benefits relating to storage of the compressed raw format and the "workability" of the 5:1 image in post.

5:1-8:1 seems to be still the general high quality range for like 95% of productions. I still see some shooters shooting 10:1 and 12:1 out there, especially if shooting 6K-4K for a 1080p delivery, though that's not the side of things I work in.

Most of the time the REDCODE RAW Compression Ratio depends on the side of the industry you are working on, project needs, budget, and what your needs are in terms of in camera and out of camera workflow.

The side of the industry I'm on seems to be chasing thicker and bigger files more and more, but seems to still want compressed RAW as there are capture and workflow benefits. Like 2:1 through 5:1 would be preferred over total uncompressed raw because of the data overhead alone.

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

All things being equal, say shooting 6K versus 5K both at 5:1, when scaling to a 4K finish you'll have slightly more detail and potentially a very slightly cleaner image.

Thanks Phil, I think Gene meant different spatial resolution but at the same datarate...so for example:

6K WS @ 10:1 vs 5K WS @ 7:1

or

6K WS @ 6:1 vs 5K WS @ 4:1

The wavelet compression make things a little less predictable...what did you find out about this?

Thanks!