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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Weapon Aluminium - Poll

Weapon Aluminium - Poll

  • I want Weapon AL 8K VV

    Votes: 71 48.0%

  • I want Weapon AL 6K

    Votes: 46 31.1%

  • No, thank you. I need the weight reduction.

    Votes: 13 8.8%

  • No, thank you. I still shoot Red One M.

    Votes: 18 12.2%
  • Total voters
    148
call me old fashion but i have shoot Arri BL’s, 535, Michells and i own 435 ES… i really don’t see why 8k VV studio camera has to be CF?? ALU VV with all bits would be still smaller then my 435 that i consider small !! if i could save some $$$ and put that in to Storage i would always pick AL over CF
 
Jordan Buck said:
But that 65mph would feel very different in a ford than a ferrari would it not?
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the feeling of shooting 98% locked off shots with a Dragon equipped MG, CF or AL with a weight difference of [enter your number here as it doesn't matter], is exactly the same: ecstatic. ;-)
 
The Weapon is too expensive for me right now. Yes, a more affordable version is needed. I suspect it will materialize around this time next year, but I'm just guessing. Kinda like the Scarlet-ish version.
 
Offering aluminum body panels is not going to make for a cheaper Weapon. In fact, I bet it would be more expensive at this point due to setting up another machining pipeline and tooling to go along with it. In terms of material cost, there isn't $30 worth of magnesium or carbon fiber on any of these Weapon brains. There is a cost associated with those materials in terms of R&D and the equipment used to manufacture them. Jarred has already said that the cost between the two is very minimal. And if they were to offer aluminum as an option, then that makes one more configuration that would have to be re-submitted for FCC testing and approval and similar certifications in other parts of the world where the cameras may be sold.

Some of you guys may not like me saying this, but the magnesium Weapon is the more affordable version. Weapon is not here to replace EPIC or Scarlet. It's the new top-tier offering. Yes, there is an upgrade program in place to help those who want to be on the bleeding edge, or who always want more, to move from their current camera into a Weapon kit. I fear that a lot of people are obsoleting the EPIC simply because a new camera body has arrived on the scene.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Some of you guys may not like me saying this, but the magnesium Weapon is the more affordable version. Weapon is not here to replace EPIC or Scarlet. It's the new top-tier offering. Yes, there is an upgrade program in place to help those who want to be on the bleeding edge, or who always want more, to move from their current camera into a Weapon kit. I fear that a lot of people are obsoleting the EPIC simply because a new camera body has arrived on the scene.
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This.

For my whole life, there have been cameras I could not afford to own. Weapon is just the latest one of those. It is not the same class of camera as the Red One or the Scarlet. Or even the Epic. It's more capable, and more expensive. And out of reach for many of us who labor in markets far away from the centers of produciton. But my Epic Dragon will make beautiful pictures for a long time to come. It is better than any camera I ever dreamed I'd own.
 
heh, I love the "No, thank you. I still shoot Red One M" option!

That truly was an amazing camera in its day and still a workhorse.

D Fuller said:
Epic Dragon will make beautiful pictures for a long time to come. It is better than any camera I ever dreamed I'd own.
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F'yeah :hurray:
 
Mike Nagel said:
Agreed, so take the pipeline of the AL Epics/Scarlets that will soon be EOL and produce AL Weapons ;-)
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Who said those pipelines will soon be EOL? The equipment in those lines is not much different than the equipment used for producing the magnesium panels. The cost of the materials is the same, even a bit cheaper for magnesium at times. I guess I'm really failing to see how aluminum is going to do anything here for anybody. And there's a good bet these pipelines are already being repurposed for production of the magnesium as it is. It's not like they need full-time, around the clock production of body panels. We're talking about a change in tooling and a few other bits and pieces that go along with working on magnesium.

Or more to the point, it seems to me that a lot of people are under the impression that making a camera with aluminum body panels is going to make some sort of huge impact on the price. I'd love to know what drives people to this conclusion. Perhaps it's due to the pricing disparity between the aluminum and carbon EPIC cameras. But there's a lot more going on there than just external body panels. And RED no doubt subsidized much of the carbon fiber R&D, equipment and process through the CF EPIC.

We are looking at very small production numbers here. If another option, like aluminum, were added into the mix, that causes another diversion, meaning fewer magnesium and fewer carbons. It's not going to save anyone any money. It's just not.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Or more to the point, it seems to me that a lot of people are under the impression that making a camera with aluminum body panels is going to make some sort of huge impact on the price. I'd love to know what drives people to this conclusion.
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This is what led me to the line of thinking that an aluminum body is a potentially cheaper option.

Jarred Land said:
Remember the Magnesium Weapon is made of Magnesium and not Aluminum like the Epic/Scarlet, The Magnesium is a more expensive process for us so the spread isn't as big as it was between the Aluminum and Carbon Fiber of the Epic.

To put it in perspective, the current Magnesium PL mount for the Epic is $3500, the Titanium PL mount is $2000.
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If I recall it correctly, this was the information:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...e-of-Thrones&p=1255263&viewfull=1#post1255263

Magnesium is difficult to machine.

But also, keep in mind, that the difference of the X or M bodies is $5K alone -- and both are aluminum. So, the invested time counts a lot. So, if the CF/Mg users are served, perhaps we can get a Weapon for our normal $9.5K fee ;o)

This is why I have asked in the last days, if perhaps an aluminum-body will be a possibility.
 
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Dr. Sassi said:
But also, keep in mind, that the difference of the X or M bodies are $5K and both are Aluminum. So, the invested time counts a lot.

This is why I have asked in the last days, if perhaps a Aluminum Body will be a possibility.
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Completely reasonable question. The difference between the X & M was cast vs machined, which makes sense for the 5k price gap.

Right now, on the red store, these are the Dragon prices:

Epic Dragon CF - 50k
Epic Dragon M - 31.2k
Epic Dragon X - 26.2k

That's almost a 24k difference in price between the CF and the X, for what appears to be just a material difference. Unless the CF does something I don't know about.
 
Thanks CJ Roj.

Going back to my time with motorcycles (being a mechanic and photographer of races) in Europe, the difference of aluminum and magnesium "rims/wheels" were really noticeable, even with the same form-factor.

So, there is hope ;o)

CJ Roy said:
Completely reasonable question. The difference between the X & M was cast vs machined, which makes sense for the 5k price gap.

Right now, on the red store, these are the Dragon prices:

Epic Dragon CF - 50k
Epic Dragon M - 31.2k
Epic Dragon X - 26.2k

That's almost a 24k difference in price between the CF and the X, for what appears to be just a material difference. Unless the CF does something I don't know about.
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Dr. Sassi said:
Going back to my time with motorcycles (being a mechanic and photographer of races) in Europe, the difference of aluminum and magnesium "rims/wheels" were really noticeable, even with the same form-factor.

So, there is hope ;o)
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lol, there probably isn't. We've got no idea how they've determined their pricing. Could be a team of accountants or darts on a board for all we know.

But it sure as hell is worth crossing your fingers and asking.
 
In my opinion Weapon should have not been called an upgrade, but rather a Cross grade.
The term upgrade created the assumption that this was end of line for the Dragon Epic / Scarlet upgrade.
Where Weapon is just a extension to the Dragon line up.
 
Even if there was a 8K Magnesium option with 30FPS max... i would still jump on it.
 
Mike P. said:
MG is $35k and CF is $50k... Now if there was an AL version for $20k, and was basically the "Scarlet" of the litter (but could still go to 8k VV for the sensor-only upgrade price), that'd be pretty awesome.
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The thing is the AL version that you describe at $15K cheaper wouldn't have any of the hardware advancements that Weapon has. It's not as simple as slamming a larger 8K sensor in there. Also the price difference from an aluminum versus magnesium body wouldn't make up that cost difference at all.

This isn't really about introducing another Scarlet Dragon model though because that exists already.

What Weapon actually is can be described as the top tier production camera with some very future minded hardware under the hood. There's a lot going on in there and there's likely more than what we "know" based off the NAB initial tease/release.

I'm observing a lot of what's going on online and on the show floor. Some love it. Some are frustrated. Some wanted the upgrade to be vastly less expensive. Some would kill to have certain features in there. I'm listening to a lot of the feature requests too. Very interesting stuff.

As for the folks here on REDuser. Many have made up their minds. Many have not. A few thoughts though from this introspective panda.

Your camera has value at RED. Not street market resale value, but value to assist in your upgrade path if you choose to take that journey. Nobody else is doing this that way. Which is why I've seen Alexas and F65s go for about $35K in the last two months.

You have time. NAB has provided trade-in incentives and credits. However, if this decision is tough or not "clear enough" you'll have time to upgrade your Scarlet or Epic Dragon to one of the Weapon models.

My personal thoughts? RED is handing you cash that you can use to outfit your upgraded gear and help with the upgrade all together. If you are in the business of renting your gear on productions in any way, shape, or form there are things that we "know" Weapon can do that will help you make money. The early bird does get the worm and ROI sooner than later is important to me. I'd rather have Weapon today and started earning on it's potential and pay it off sooner than later.

Some other thoughts because it's freaking windy outside in Vegas right now.

8K and VistaVision. RED is actually way ahead on this one and it's a smart move. I did a few on camera interviews today that I'm sure will pop up online. But I'll say this. 2016 is about 8 months away. There are 8K broadcasts tests and trials being done in the states, Japan, and South Korea. This is stuff I've been involved with for 2 years moderately. 2020 will see the first notable 8K broadcast of the Olympics. There are other larger and more expensive 8K options out there and there are a whole bunch of 8K displays at NAB. Many may not need it now. Need is a funny word in this case really. I personally need VistaVision based off my personal insanity and I want 8K. I also want that in a multi-format system that allows me to shoot different formats and resolutions because different gigs require different things these days.

Right now is the amoebic floating NAB thing we've seen a bit ago. In some ways not an exciting display for many companies. In other realms like various affordable and rather disposable 4K systems and the rather future minded push for 4K+ and 8K imaging, not to mention larger format imaging; this has been the real story. Disregarding our local experiences of how to upgrade or not that is.

There are two companies pushing the resolution and format boundaries. RED happens to make the "one" with very important resolution to format relevance and in a package that people can actually buy at the end of the year. This is phenomenal. And it's not the cheapest thing on earth because it is literally the state of the art technology.

That said, there's a whole Dragon family of cameras now. There are many options for many types of shooters. From moderate entry level to blistering-bleeding-molten-edge future stuffs. Don't panic if it doesn't make sense for some reason. If you find productions needing Weapon as it solves many things they have been looking for, that's something to ponder right this second and think carefully about the future and your business plan/model/spaceship.
 
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