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Video vs Cine heads!

Ben Jackson

Ben Jackson

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I just learned the difference, at least I think! I just wanted to ask if this is correct. I went to Bezer or whatever they're called in Burbank... they had a bunch of studio tripods second hand for sale, some old Sachtler V25 on dollies for $5000, pretty good deal. Too big for what I need but yeah. I checked out what else they had. I've only ever rented tripods. They only had other V18's and V25's. I've often used the Video 18 and 20's on shoots.
Anyway, one thing I've always struggled with is being able to have the head tilt down and STAY PUT, the sachtler heads I've always used and rented, all bounce back to level. They mentioned that it was more of a cine head thing to do that.

So that's it then? the Video series for studio work etc all bounce back to level, and the cine heads will stay put? I couldn't make the video heads do this at all. But I'm assuming a 7+7 sachter would.... and the oconnor 1030 and 2060 etc???
Is that right?

I'm still trying to decide what to get to buy, and really want (if I'm going to buy) to have a head that will stay put when tilted down.

Just wanted advice, obviously the question has been asked a million times (what tripod for a red epic) but just wanted confirmation - yes, don't get a Video 18 or 20 head, get a cine 7+7 or oconnor - or what other heads do this, tilt and stay put?

Thank you!
 
No, any head for any application should stay where you put it. If the counterbalances are set for the load, and the camera is balanced it will stay put. Cartoni c-20 has I think 7 differnt spring levels, sachtler have up to five depending on the model, modern oconners are infinitely adjustable.

Nick
 
The term "tilt and stay put" isn't exactly the term you want, although that's how some fluid heads work.

What you are referring to and actual want out of a quality cinema style fluid head is the ability to adjust your counter balance.

This depends on a couple things. Mainly the weight of your typical camera rig and the position it is on the base plate.

Typically, although not always, you want your camera "centered" meaning it's weight is distributed evenly when tilting forward and back.

The counter balance should then be adjusted to that weight so you can have a proper smooth move that either stops at a specific tilt position, gives a little bit on a tilt position, or pushes back on a tilt position. This largely depends on the move you are trying to achieve. The most common being stopping at a specific tilt position. That particular move really separates cheap and quality fluid heads.

I personally own the OConnor 1030D with 30L Carbon Fiber Legs. My Red rigs are typically between 15-25lbs depending on accessories. I also own a Manfrotto 509HD with 536 Carbon Fiber Legs which I use occasionally. Although I use the legs a bit more with the OConnor 1030D head.

Many say, it's best to get a fluid head and tripod rated for a larger capacity. For the most part I'd agree. However, if part of the equation is portability, you have to make certain decisions.

My personal gear I've rigged out on 100mm bowls for potability. However, 150mm and Mitchell Mount are very common in cinema applications for cameras of this caliber.

Hope that helps.
 
Hah I actually asked Oconnor this very same question a few months ago.

Short answer is that there is no difference.

Medium answer is that they did it in order to sell more heads. Video studios wanted to buy heads labeled "video" and film guys wanted "film" heads

Long answer is that there are some very microscopic things that are different about them. The average operator would not notice the difference, but a measurement device would observe that there is slightly less drag on the video heads. Supposedly, in some environments they want less drag, and will actually send their heads to oconnor to be modified for less drag. But the drag is theoretically very adjustable, so that's why I say its a very slight difference that you would never know.
 
I have a Video 18 sensor for lightweight applications.
Next to the bubble level, there is a dial with steps marked between 1-5.
After you balance the camera, one would usually set the marked dial around 3 - that provides better control in normal shooting.
If you want to tilt all the way down without any spring back, just set the dial to 1. Camera tilts down and stays there.

Edit: BTW, just set it up in front of me to be sure - loaded with an EPIC, and RPP 25mm - stays put with zero bounce back at "1", bounces back at "3"...


As to your other inquiry, I believe that the difference in naming conventions between "Video" and "Cine" heads refers to the camera mounting system.

The "Video" heads have numerous designs when it comes to the interface between the camera and tripod head. You will find wedge shaped plates, various sizes of Sachtler "touch and go" plates, and many others - there is no real standard.

All of the named "Cine" heads I am aware of share use of the ARRI dovetail as a standard.
This is the design on the Sachtler Cine30HD I own for heavier loads.
The OConnor cine heads use the same ARRI dovetail.
As do others that are typically related to film production - the one thing in common - that dovetail interface...
 
Ok that is great information from all of you. Thanks Brian, Jason, Phil and Nick!

It was so weird that I couldn't get these guys who sell Tripods all day long to show me how to make the Video 25 Sachtler tilt and not spring back. Only 1 of them had a camera on it though, would it make it impossible to make it happen if there was no camera on it?

So basically what you're saying is that if I can find a good Video 18 or Oconnor 1030 or anything like that, I'll be good to go (provided they're in good condition) with the functionality I need. Or perhaps a Video 20 or 25 for heavier loads if I can be bothered lugging it around with me.
 
Testing or trying to demo a tripod head without a load does not do justice to the engineering that goes into those units.

First and foremost, you need to properly balance the camera on the head - with all the accessories you plan on using. In the case of the Video 18 Sensor or similar, a simple setup with an EPIC or Scarlet body, standard lens, lightweight matte box and EVF or TS is within working range. Look at attaching a bolt-on mount (http://www.red.com/store/products/quick-release-platform-bolt-on) to the Touch and Go plate.

If your load increases - let's say you add a heavier zoom lens or add something like an MB-14, you need to increase the capacity of the head.
You also need to factor in your shooting style. If you change lenses often - or change the configuration where the center of gravity changes - you should really consider a dovetail interface. Sliding the entire camera package on the dovetail is a fast and efficient method of rebalancing the camera package.

That's where the Cine heads shine. With dovetail plates available from 12" to 18" and even 24", you can accommodate and properly support most any combination of camera,, lens and aks. (Of course, the rating of the head itself applies)
With the non-cine heads, you can also affix a dovetail plate and interface such as http://www.red.com/store/products/dsmc-quick-release-platform-packn
This does not give you as much capacity as a full system, but it will help.


Heavier loads = the need for heavier heads & sticks. In the long run, you will want solutions for both.
 
Ha, you've discovered how many people who sell things to our industry actually have no idea how it is used.

I have the O'conner 2575D as the main head for my Epic. It's the industry standard, I pile my 45-250 Alura + motors + TelePrompTer...no problem. I'm pretty sure I could climb on and ride the thing if I wanted to. Catch is that it weighs a metric ton.

I used to have an O'Conner 1030 but when DSLR's started shooting video it became a tough head to use because you can never take the counterbalance out 100% so you'd be fighting it when you'd tilt. I moved over the the Sachtler Video 20 S1 and was really impressed. Primarily I needed it for my C300 but wanted a head that might be able to pull double duty with the Epic if I needed to stay light. Not only can you dial the drag and counterbalance so light that you can balance a C300 with a 50mm ZE, but it also has a "HI" payload switch for counterbalance that effectively doubles the load. I've been able to load my Epic, 18-80 or 45-250 zoom, matte box, HyTron battery, micro force, etc and still keep it balanced on that little head. If you're looking for a head that will last and keep up as your gear grows I'd definitely recommend the Video 20 s1.
 
I've noticed that it's a LOT easier to balance my Epic now that I've got the dovetail. I'm probably doing it wrong but by trial and error I have a basic setup procedure that I use: Level the head, set the drag and counterweight low (0 or 1), slide the camera onto the dovetail and find the balance point (location where the camera will sit level without drifting in either direction from top dead center), turn the drag up a bit and tilt the camera forward at 45 degrees or so, adjust the counterbalance until the camera sits still, try a couple other angles (including tilting up... if you found the balance point right it should stay put), adjust drag to desired level. Goes pretty quick for me. I suspect my Miller Compass is considered a 'video' head (and it wasn't that expensive... $3k iirc), but you can set it up to either sit or push back toward neutral pretty easily - I imagine that the really top shelf kit is even easier (more adjustment levels).
 
Ben Jackson said:
It was so weird that I couldn't get these guys who sell Tripods all day long to show me how to make the Video 25 Sachtler tilt and not spring back.
Click to expand...

And something I'm sure they also didn't know, and may be news to lots of people is that many of the larger Sachtler heads (like 25 Plus, 60 Plus) have a couple of tiny screws buried under the sliding camera plate - these disengage some of the counterbalance springs allowing for the use of lighter payloads.
Incidentally, with Sachtlers, the difference between Film and ENG heads has typically been nothing more than accessories and configuration (plus nameplate!) For instance the old Video 25 had a counterpart called the Horizon and the Video 20 had the Panorama. The difference was that the ENG heads came with 2 pan bars (one of zoom and one for focus servos) and that was about it! Sometimes the Cine versions will come with eyepiece leveling brackets too.
This is also the case with latest Sachtler "Cine" heads like the Cine 30 - this is a Video 25 Plus with a different (and heavier!) sliding top plate - that's it!
Steve
 
The heavier duty Cine Sachtlers also often come with two fixtures on the front for an AC's front box for AC accessories.

I have the Sachtler Video 20Mk2 which is a fine fluid head for the Epic. However, one caveat is that my Element Technica (and probably most other manufacturer's) dovetail plate hole spacing is too wide to use both screws on the commonly found very short quick release snap on plate on the head. So for this reason you may prefer the non-snap plate Sachtlers depending on your dovetail, and how heavy your camera loads are. I can attach the original Red One Shoulder Dovetail with both screws though, and use it that way.

The stepped counterbalance is totally usable, but I prefer the continuous counterbalance of other makes. However, secondhand Sachtlers at affordable prices are more common than other makes for some reason, so that's what I bought.
 
Very good point Eric - though of course you could always put another screw hole in the ET plate - even I can do that amount of engineering myself! As for front box etc., another good point - although even here I'm sure most heads will have the fixing points available, they just don't ship with the extra bits. I just think people who don't know need to be aware, as in the initial question, that there isn't really another operation / mechanical difference between what's termed and marketed as a Cine head - a camera's a camera!
Steve
 
Depends on the shot or the production. If you have to carry your own stuff around and lets say are about to shoot from the mountain top. Then it's probably good with a low weight small tripod.... On the other end is as big and expansive as can be. The thing is a tripod should in a perfect scenario even be so sturdy so that it can work with the lens / camera far off balance. One imoportant thing about being on a tripod is the nodal point of your lens in correlation to the pan tilt axis.... Some say that correlation should be the same as between your neck and your eyes. Some like to extend that some like it to be equal to zero on both axises and use lambda heads. To me it's very much a shot by shot thing. Sometimes it's really nice to have the camera mounted far forward, so it actually makes quite a move when paning or tilting. And some times it's nice to have it back mounted and for panarama stuff you need it in nodal... So basically to have that freedom you need a rather sturdy tripod and a small camera, or even better a gear head.

just try to explain why I do not own a tripod... as pretty much every other shoot needs a different one.
 
I use an OConnor 1030 HDs fluid head with a Sachtler CF 2 100 ENG tripod for my main work. You need to balance your rig and dial in the desired counterbalance so that the camera stays at the angle you want it to tilt and stay and not bounce back. Else, you will have vibration in the footage. One easy way to counterbalance is to use a Arri style dovetail. For wildlife I use long lenses and hence use a 18 inch WC dovetail. So quickly I can move the equipment front and back to bring the centre of gravity to the middle of the head. Then it becomes easier to dial the required counterbalance and it is achieved much faster. Saves lot of time.
 
Sabyasachi Patra said:
I use an OConnor 1030 HDs fluid head with a Sachtler CF 2 100 ENG tripod for my main work. You need to balance your rig and dial in the desired counterbalance so that the camera stays at the angle you want it to tilt and stay and not bounce back. Else, you will have vibration in the footage.
Click to expand...

And not just that of course - if your camera is not balanced properly then as you tilt up or down you're going to need a different amount of pressure to move the camera rather than keeping it equal and smooth. A lot of this is not that important on short lenses, but for long lens wildlife stuff it becomes critical - that's why I'm such a tripod obsessive! And it's why it's why, like Sabyasachi I have come to favour the O'Connors - stepless drag and most importantly counterbalance are such a help.
Steve
 
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