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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

VERY nervous. . . please help: Outputting final film version for final deliverables.

Stephen Pruitt

Stephen Pruitt

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Hi all. . .

I'm about to stroke out here (and I'm not kidding here). We have to send the final version of our first film, Works in Progress, out to our distributor, Vanguard Cinema by the end of the week. This is our first film, and we have never done this before.

We edited the film using FCP, and then sent it out to have the color work done in Scratch. The Scratch files were sent back to us in a DNxHD format and that's what we now have on our Mac. We need to provide Vanguard with a Prores 4444 file for the deliverables. They asked for a "10-bit uncompressed 4:4:4 Prores."

Here is the crucial question: What, exactly do we need to do to convert our baby from the DNxHD to this format?

Thank you so much for your help.

Sincerely,

Stephen
 
Ok... what they sent back to you from the color correction are the avid files. I know you can install the DNX codecs free of charge but I've never tried to see if they play nice with FCP.

As for the deliverable.... what they asked for is a contradiction.

10 bit uncompressed is one format.
4:4:4 Prores is another compression entirely.
 
Stephen, was the movie finished COMPLETELY by the guys with the scratch?

I would be very wary of the gamma bug. Be diligent, check check check...

I am servicing deliverables for Sony and Universal and its been fairly stressful. Thank god we got thru QC with very very minor notes, and approved :-)

Do you have to deliver your project with or without QC?
 
Do they have a deliverables document with TECH SPECS?
 
Stephen Pruitt said:
Hi all. . .

I'm about to stroke out here (and I'm not kidding here). We have to send the final version of our first film, Works in Progress, out to our distributor, Vanguard Cinema by the end of the week. This is our first film, and we have never done this before.

We edited the film using FCP, and then sent it out to have the color work done in Scratch. The Scratch files were sent back to us in a DNxHD format and that's what we now have on our Mac. We need to provide Vanguard with a Prores 4444 file for the deliverables. They asked for a "10-bit uncompressed 4:4:4 Prores."

Here is the crucial question: What, exactly do we need to do to convert our baby from the DNxHD to this format?

Thank you so much for your help.

Sincerely,

Stephen
Click to expand...
Whenever I finish a feature or a short, I always provide graded DPX copy in addition to required deliverables, as a courtesy, because you never know... like in this case. DPX can be encoded into any 10 bit codec, just use AE or upcoming free Resolve. Or better yet, if the movie gets released, you can use this DPX copy do the filmout or DCP. Winning!
I know Stephen, that money sometimes tight, especially for self financed features, but sometimes the cheapest solution is not necessarily best.
Said that, there is something screwy with the technical specs. As correctly pointed out, Prores is a compressed codec. You need to contact the distributor and clear this question before you get a stroke:-)
 
Yep. That is mildly terrifying. Especially the fact that they asked for two different formats at the same time.

I think you very specifically need to verify whether they want Uncompressed 10-bit OR (compressed) ProRes4444.

Even so, be careful - various combinations of FCP / After Effects / Compressor, combined with Gamma Correction - Auto or None in the Quicktime settings for ProRes can result in a darker or lighter picture. I actually found that Auto worked better for me than None, but I still got confusing gamma shifts sometimes. It also depends on whether ProRes is in RGB or YUV mode (which depends on which mode FCP thinks it's in - AAAAH). Confusing as hell.

Ask them to confirm the settings. Email them:
"I am going to convert from Avid DNxHD source files (709 spec, with black point at 7.5 IRE - eg 16 on the 0-255 scale)... to your ProRes4444 format using Compressor, with Gamma Correction set to None. OK?"

They must have dealt with this problem many times.

Maybe just send their technical guy a short test Quicktime?

Sucks that they can't just accept DNxHD. I mean, it's a freely available codec. And doesn't have gamma problems.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
Yep. That is mildly terrifying. Especially the fact that they asked for two different formats at the same time.

I think you very specifically need to verify whether they want Uncompressed 10-bit OR (compressed) ProRes4444.

Even so, be careful - various combinations of FCP / After Effects / Compressor, combined with Gamma Correction - Auto or None in the Quicktime settings for ProRes can result in a darker or lighter picture. I actually found that Auto worked better for me than None, but I still got big gamma shifts. Confusing as hell.

Sucks that they can't just accept DNxHD. I mean, it's a freely available codec. And doesn't have gamma problems.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...
Clients don't have to accept anything, other than what they require. That is, unless they don't know themselves:-)
 
Get more info!

Get more info!

Hi! if they ask you for 10 bit unconpressed is probably dpx 10 bit sequence files .... QT 4:4:4:4 is just quicktime with this settings. Ask for tech specs by email.
Can you go back and ask to the people of scratch export this for you? because it will the best to do.. not reexporting the DNxHD.
 
Frank. . . no, the film was not completely finished by the Scratch crew. We made several edits after that point on the FCP timeline. How do we check for the gamma bug? That is, how would I know if the final deliverable was good and gamma shift free? This is, obviously, very scary for me.

Mr. Fetchko. . . so you are saying that Prores 4444 is not the same thing as 10-bit uncompressed? How would one output a 10-bit uncompressed file from our FCP/DNxHD file?

I'm all ears. . . err. . . eyes.

Stephen
 
HI Jake! Long time no see, hope you are ok :-)

Unto this, in what specific avid codec you got this movie? Was it split into reels or is it continuous?

It could be the case that you got your film done/delivered at 4:4:4. It would be due diligence to find out and to do the best you can to keep it as close as possible to what you where delivered.
 
Best way would be to export a prores 4:4:4 for about one minute of the movie, then a 10-bit uncompressed and compare those two against what you received OUTSIDE of FCP. I would check it on QTX and on QTPro7.

If they look the same, then you are probably ok, if they dont match, you got gamma bug issues.

feel free to ask, I am up all night prepping an 80+ items deliverables list... :-(
 
Unfortunately, we can't go back to the Scratch file, because we made a number of edits to that file after it was finished. I suppose it might be possible to send our DNxHD file to someone else for them to do a final output.

This is all incredibly frightening. We've invested four years of our lives and $300,000 of our own money into this film, not counting all of the work on our editor, cast, and crew. We just have to get it right. If we were rich, we'd just write another check. But that was $300,000 ago.

:-(

I'll write them for exact specifications.

Thanks so much, guys.

Stephen
 
Hey there, Frank. . .

. . . here's what we know: When we use Compressor to convert our DNxHD FCP timeline to AppleTV, it looks great. No issues. Everything looks the way it is supposed to. When we burn Blu-Rays, it looks great, too. We've never seen it any other way.

Stephen
 
So you are probably ok. I already saw many people calling QT 4:4:4:4 as 10bit unconpressed... but this is ohter discusion.
so ask for the tech specs.. probably you will only need to export the DNxHD to QT on a finacut or avid. .. like frank said just check the before and after on a good calibrated monitor to see gamma issues
 
Well, we had proper post at one point, but had to make several more edits, which undoubtedly is what is causing the potential problems now. (The film is a lot better for the additional edits, by the way.)

Is there someone who could take our DNxHD file and provide "certified proper" output for Vanguard? What would be the charge for something like that? And what would be involved? Obviously, we do not have properly calibrated monitor. . . just our TVs and Apple Cinema displays.

Thanks.

Stephen
 
Stephen, honestly. If you are really REALLY concerned about being faithful to your $300,000 investment, do the proper thing and hire someone to create a proper SR tape with a round of QC and fixes. This will pay sooooo many dividends down the road...

Like Jake says, this is THE LAST place you want to be saving $. Making an SR and QCing (with reports) it shouldn't go past 5K. Now if you want to be properly terrified.....


Imagine this scenario.

Someone loves your film, and they decide to go to print. Someone spends around $50,000 to get it to print and then you find "weird" things.
It becomes a back and forth at this point that can (and does) derail your project and creates a sour experience for all parties involved. It can happen. It HAPPENS.
A little bit of money now will save you SOOO much grief down the road.
 
Stephen Pruitt said:
Well, we had proper post at one point, but had to make several more edits, which undoubtedly is what is causing the potential problems now. (The film is a lot better for the additional edits, by the way.)

Is there someone who could take our DNxHD file and provide "certified proper" output for Vanguard? What would be the charge for something like that? And what would be involved? Obviously, we do not have properly calibrated monitor. . . just our TVs and Apple Cinema displays.

Thanks.

Stephen
Click to expand...

Stephen. Proper QC is super expensive. That is why it is so important to hire someone in the first place, that is able to provide proper deliverables. I do hope, that you had learned your lesson and next time you'll hire someone better:-)
 
I normally finish to HDCAM SR 4:4:4. This is pretty much industry standard as a lot of distributors want 6 channel audio and this is the only format that handles up to 8 tracks.

Release formats to TV networks are usually HDCAM with 2 channel stereo mix 1+2 and M+E on 3+4

I suggest you go somewhere that will take responsibility for the final masters. Hey I would but I am in Australia, and I am sure there are local companies near you that would take on that responsibility.

Trust me dont do it yourself unless you know what you are doing, as I QC everthing on a Tektronix WVM7000 waveform/ vector / gamma scope and without this and proper audio monitors like Talia's (analogue vu) + Dorrough (Digital VU/loudness) meters you dont stand a chance in a tech review.

Besides that I also would send a DPX sequence or a JPEG2000 sequence if the program is going back to film.
 
Adam Eden said:
I normally finish to HDCAM SR 4:4:4. This is pretty much industry standard as a lot of distributors want 6 channel audio and this is the only format that handles up to 8 tracks.

Release formats to TV networks are usually HDCAM with 2 channel stereo mix 1+2 and M+E on 3+4

I suggest you go somewhere that will take responsibility for the final masters. Hey I would but I am in Australia, and I am sure there are local companies near you that would take on that responsibility.

Trust me dont do it yourself unless you know what you are doing, as I QC everthing on a Tektronix WVM7000 waveform/ vector / gamma scope and without this and proper audio monitors like Talia's (analogue vu) + Dorrough (Digital VU/loudness) meters you dont stand a chance in a tech review.

Besides that I also would send a DPX sequence or a JPEG2000 sequence if the program is going back to film.
Click to expand...

I agree 100% with this. I spent better part of a year grading a feature. We where insanely careful with it, I watched that movie like 20 times with different settings, scopes you name it, and STILL had a full page of tech notes when the QC was done. MoFo spotted ONE DEADE PIXEL in ONE frame of my entire movie, and that was enough for it to be sent back. Do the right thing and get it done the right way.

Sorry, I dont want to rain on your parade, but better catch any errors now, than after a distributor spends real $$$$ on it only to find his stuff to be wrong.

I cant stress this enough.
 
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