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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Very High Red-orange Noise Levels Without Black Shade

I'm doing more test today, i can write something up when i'm totally sure about my solution.
 
1/120 shutter is still way nosier then under 1/60 even after all my tests with black shading. Can anyone over at red shed some light on why this might be? Will this be resolved in a firmware update.

Jacob
 
FAVOR! Could some black shade their dragon for me at 70degrees 59.94 Base and 1/120 shutter then after the balance film 2 secs of footage with the lens cap on of total black a post the .r3d? I want to see if the dancing noise i'm getting off my calibrations are similar to others dragons out there.

Thanks,
 
jacob.schwarz said:
Why does the camera go to 24fps when it does it's black shading? Any advice?
Click to expand...

Don't remember the exact wording but someone from RED told me it was just a default setting for blackshading.

At the time I did my black shade my setting was 47.995 (or whatever) with a 360 degree shutter. The camera defaulted back to 24 fps and a 180 degree shutter, IIRC. After the black shade it reverted back to the 47.995 time base and 360 degree shutter... again, IIRC.
 
Latest firmware build (1.5.1) seems to have improved the noise levels somewhat - however I need to do additional tests this weekend to verify. Also Red tech confirmed there are some BS optimizations in the latest build. It was suggested to me (by a red tech) to bs at 90 degree shutter if shooting at 180 degree shutter. This did reduce red channel noise.
 
I have the latest firmware which seems to have corrected the little flashes of light I was getting but the shadows are still very noisey with lots of red mosquitoes. Even at ISO 400 the noise is fairly distracting in the shadows. Is everyone experiencing this?
 
Paul J Steinberg said:
Does the same here. My Dragon doesn't seem to be taking any black balance at all...or it's just brutal noisy.

Take a look at this R3D still and let me know if it is similar to what you're seeing on your end: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jbwgg3gygdqf4wd/A003_C003_0604C5.0000011F.R3D
Click to expand...

I'm seeing the same kind of noise in my footage. Even if it's properly exposed and nothing is clipping in either goal posts, I'm seeing this same noise all over. I'm on the latest dragon release build 5.1.51 and have done several black shades, but nothing is helping.

Here's an R3D snapshot of mine. Notice the prominent noise to the right of the frame where the black cars are.
https://elevationvideo.box.com/s/6l8bow1mo3k9rf2iepf2

For comparison, here's a simliar scene from NYC I shot about 6 weeks ago on the MX sensor. No where near as much noise as the dragon snapshot.
https://elevationvideo.box.com/s/rfwwkqtfvqbtdngygy15

EDIT: Want to clarify that I've done a black shade before any shoots I've done with the Dragon at the correct FPS/Exposure settings that I'm using for that shoot, but there really seems to be no improvement in the noise levels.
 
Yeeesh, that's the same as what I'm seeing here. Anything with a low luminance value is FULL of noise. If you haven't done so yet, you can try opening a ticket with Red. They're looking at my Dragon now.

I'd like to hear from the early adopters, all of whom raved about how clean the camera was. Were the earlier firmware version cleaner and the current versions introduced this noise? Are they seeing it on their cameras as well? Is this a bad run of cameras?
 
Paul J Steinberg said:
Yeeesh, that's the same as what I'm seeing here. Anything with a low luminance value is FULL of noise. If you haven't done so yet, you can try opening a ticket with Red. They're looking at my Dragon now.

I'd like to hear from the early adopters, all of whom raved about how clean the camera was. Were the earlier firmware version cleaner and the current versions introduced this noise? Are they seeing it on their cameras as well? Is this a bad run of cameras?
Click to expand...

My impression is it's not the sensor, but the new calibration that's creating this rednoise in blacks...the new calibration seems to push the camera an extra stop or so in the highlights, but the cost appears to be additional noise in blacks. For those shooters/creatives who prefer spotless clean blacks (as the earlier calibration appeared to be...according to Geoff Boyle...shocking clean)...this is clearly something that many would like to see remedied...presumably through some new calibration/firmware release.

Personally, I work in broadcast, and all my footage gets loaded 8bit into Avid projects...All my highlights get chopped off anyway. But noise in blacks is much harder for me to contend with, so I too hope this can get addressed soon with some sort of update.

best
 
Nick Morrison said:
Personally, I work in broadcast, and all my footage gets loaded 8bit into Avid projects...All my highlights get chopped off anyway. But noise in blacks is much harder for me to contend with, so I too hope this can get addressed soon with some sort of update.

best
Click to expand...

100% Agreed all our content goes to broadcast and our clients are super frustrated with me and this noise issue. I'm having to rent a MX sensor while RED figures this issue out. I wish they could provide us a solution!
 
jacob.schwarz said:
100% Agreed all our content goes to broadcast and our clients are super frustrated with me and this noise issue. I'm having to rent a MX sensor while RED figures this issue out. I wish they could provide us a solution!
Click to expand...

Ideally, there'd be some way to send your cam to RED, and pick your calibration. More DR in highlights...or more DR in blacks (less noise)...depending on your shotting needs. But that sounds like a logistical headache for RED. Good news is, we know the sensor is amazing. It's all THERE. RED, by all accounts, presumably just needs to adjust the firmware to spread out or interpret the DR in such a way that blacks render cleaner.

For me, clean blacks are certainly a priority. Most of what I do for broadcast also ends up on the web (on network's site, and often pushed onto social media). Noise in blacks invariably gets augmented once you compress for web, so having as little as possible in the source footage is certainly a priority on our end.
 
I felt like the noise issue may have started when the new OLPF was introduced. Possible?



Nick Morrison said:
My impression is it's not the sensor, but the new calibration that's creating this rednoise in blacks...the new calibration seems to push the camera an extra stop or so in the highlights, but the cost appears to be additional noise in blacks. For those shooters/creatives who prefer spotless clean blacks (as the earlier calibration appeared to be...according to Geoff Boyle...shocking clean)...this is clearly something that many would like to see remedied...presumably through some new calibration/firmware release.

Personally, I work in broadcast, and all my footage gets loaded 8bit into Avid projects...All my highlights get chopped off anyway. But noise in blacks is much harder for me to contend with, so I too hope this can get addressed soon with some sort of update.

best
Click to expand...
 
Daniel Soderberg said:
I felt like the noise issue may have started when the new OLPF was introduced. Possible?
Click to expand...

Yes, in terms of timing. But my understanding was it wasn't the new OLPF affecting noise (I believe new OLPF reduces flares), but rather the new calibration that accompanied the new OLFP...that could be affecting noise. But again, this is just my summation. I don't have a Dragon yet, but many people's common experiences seem to be suggesting some/much of this...yes.
 
I'm trying to roll back the firmware but can't seem to go back beyond 5.1.49. Still the same noise in the image after calibration. For my use, totally unusable. I'm with Jacob in having to rent an MX while Red figures this out. I can't believe that Red are shipping this camera in this condition.
 
Paul J Steinberg said:
I'm trying to roll back the firmware but can't seem to go back beyond 5.1.49. Still the same noise in the image after calibration. For my use, totally unusable. I'm with Jacob in having to rent an MX while Red figures this out. I can't believe that Red are shipping this camera in this condition.
Click to expand...

What happens if you shoot at ISO 250/320 like Toia does? Are you able to get his same spotless results? Curious...
 
Nick Morrison said:
What happens if you shoot at ISO 250/320 like Toia does? Are you able to get his same spotless results? Curious...
Click to expand...
all that you are doing is crushing the black and killing the usable data that is there. The sensor wants more light with this calibration but we can't always give it.
 
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