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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Very High Red-orange Noise Levels Without Black Shade

Charles Bergquist said:
With a lot of people getting wildly different results and given that there's "more than one way to black shade a Red", especially with the Dragon now. Does Red have any plans of automating this process to some degree? Possibly sending an alert when shutter has changed or when sensor has reached "shadeable" temperature range, etc, etc, etc.
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Isn't that what the Cal T/E meter on the main screen is for?
 
I've seen the image on the left with orange. Shot with it just like that, footage looked good. Thank for posting, interested to hear more.

Daniel Soderberg said:
Anyone else notice crazy noise levels on Dragon when first turning on and also when warmed up without doing a black shade?


I've attached two samples. Note that they are both ISO 4000. The first is without black shade, the second is with black shade at "current exposure/frame rate".




I tried a regular black shade (the other option that is not "current exposure") and the noise levels got MUCH worse which is also weird.




On the upside, the noise levels are insanely low with a good black shade. The downside, they are very high if you don't have time to black shade. And seem to be very non-symmetric having much more noise on left side of sensor.



Also noticed that on the onboard monitor on camera, the noise looks about 3x as bad with crazy flickering (in luminance) in the noise which looks very bad... Not sure why it didn't carry over when uploaded to Redcine. Scared me for a minute.


(Tried to upload R3D but can't on Reduser which is really odd)

Anyone else have similar findings?

http://soderbergfilms.com/DragonCold.png
http://soderbergfilms.com/DragonCaliberated.png
Click to expand...
 
Yeah that's what I usually use to gauge temp to begin blackshade on Epic / Dragon. I guess I'm just having some issues getting accustomed to the process of blackshading on Dragon, it seems as if when anything is changed the blackshade needs to be redone, is that right?

Here's where I'm at, maybe someone can shed a little light on this. I'm getting banding at 2000 ISO in dark underexposed situations, as well as a shift / flicker at 2000 ISO ( see frame 309-310 ) . I understand that there should be noise, just wondering if this is how Dragon looks on power up for everyone. This was blackshaded at USER and at Current FPS / Exposure, dark room, warmed all the way up, black wrap around the mount. I bumped it up to 12,800 in the photo, so you can see it, but this is visible at 2000 as well. I've redone the blackshade a few times and I still get the same thing.

Power On Pattern JPG of LCD : https://www.dropbox.com/s/de3c3ntq6sfk1ir/2014-05-29 12.20.26.jpg

iPhone Video : https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/161718/2014-05-29 13.26.26.mov

Motion R3D on black surface ( some kind of color shift at frame 309 to 310 ) : https://www.dropbox.com/s/56n53egiseaftkf/A005_C007_05307X_001.R3D

Sensor pattern R3D Still : https://www.dropbox.com/s/dfixhqmo2wa7rni/A005_C005_0530F8.0000085F.R3D
 
Even for interior studio environments you need to black shade when changing any setting? I am about to do some Dragon tests on Tueday, so any advice going into it is appreciated!
 
TheBied said:
What you may be noticing in these instances is a slight black level shift which makes the noise floor more or less apparent. Black shading will make sure the black level is at it's optimal level.
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Any chance of getting a single, dynamically updated, sticky Official Comprehensive RED Black Shading Guide? There has been approximately 1.56 Billion posts on Black Shading since 2006. Most of which conflict with each other or spread mythology and faith based solutions
 
Zeb B said:
Any chance of getting a single, dynamically updated, sticky Official Comprehensive RED Black Shading Guide? There has been approximately 1.56 Billion posts on Black Shading since 2006. Most of which conflict with each other or spread mythology and faith based solutions
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Ah yes, the BS BS. Mythology is RED's greatest strength and weakness. Hard facts?, esoteric concept.
 
i won't lie, i'm pretty disappointed with this whole thing as well. I just shot some footage with a client as a test to prove how awesome the dragon was and then when we threw it up on our 4k display it looked like total shit. I was super embraced and the client told me to just go back to the old sensor. Now i after much test with black shading i can't seem to get consistent results. Even after the camera has warmed up a black shading that worked for me before doesn't seem to hold up when i use it again with the same setting and running at the same temp. I loved with the MX the fact that i could just pull it out and shoot and now i feel like i have to babysit the camera more which is a drag. Don't get me wrong when i get everything to play nice the image, DR, color of the Dragon is outstanding just wish it wasn't so random in the results it produces.

Also does anyone else feel like the boot time on the Dragon is longer?
 
I'll also add that i shoot everything at 59.94p Base and when i Calibrate it to a 1/120 i get those crazy flashes of white frames which haven't ever seen before but which you guys on the forum have mentioned. No i don't see them much with lower frame rates and fast shutters but just at 50p and 60p base. Anyone else experiencing this issue?
 
Jacob.schwarz said:
Also does anyone else feel like the boot time on the Dragon is longer?
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Once the power light turns green, on the side of the camera, it does seem to take longer for the image to be displayed on the LCD relative to the MX.

Jacob.Schwarz said:
I'll also add that i shoot everything at 59.94p Base and when i Calibrate it to a 1/120 i get those crazy flashes of white frames which haven't ever seen before but which you guys on the forum have mentioned. No i don't see them much with lower frame rates and fast shutters but just at 50p and 60p base. Anyone else experiencing this issue?
Click to expand...

I have not shot at those rates nor have I seen the white flashes. You should send a log and sample R3D to Red to look at. Could be a bug.
 
I too am seeing substantially higher noise levels on Dragon than I am seeing on the MX sensor. Default black shade is a disaster and shouldn't even be an option. Current settings BS is slightly better but still not great. Noise appears red and seems much more flickery/dancey to me. Tested on 2 Different Dragons with similar results. Have reported to red asking if this is expected behavior for the sensor or a sensor issue but no feedback yet (1 week).
 
Are you guys BSing with the camera 'hot'. ie John Marchant mentioned BS at 70, (I recall, I may be wrong), gave better results for him. Jarred also mentioned that Dragon likes to run 'hot'.

If this is whats causing it then its far from ideal as waiting on MX to warm up is already a PITA AFAIAC.
 
jacob.schwarz said:
i won't lie, i'm pretty disappointed with this whole thing as well. I just shot some footage with a client as a test to prove how awesome the dragon was and then when we threw it up on our 4k display it looked like total shit. I was super embraced and the client told me to just go back to the old sensor. Now i after much test with black shading i can't seem to get consistent results. Even after the camera has warmed up a black shading that worked for me before doesn't seem to hold up when i use it again with the same setting and running at the same temp. I loved with the MX the fact that i could just pull it out and shoot and now i feel like i have to babysit the camera more which is a drag. Don't get me wrong when i get everything to play nice the image, DR, color of the Dragon is outstanding just wish it wasn't so random in the results it produces.

Also does anyone else feel like the boot time on the Dragon is longer?
Click to expand...

I had the same issue wit the BETA firmware, did you try the 5.1.51? That is mutch mutch better with my Dragon
 
The new release build appears to have a "Black shade optimization" for Dragon. Hoping this may be addressing the issue. I too have been shocked and disappointed thus far with the noise levels in my footage, even after doing a BS with all the recommended steps.
 
Loaded the release of 5.1.51. Looking at the noise goalpost to the left of the histogram...there are A LOT of pixels in the noise floor if anything dark is in the shot. And by A LOT I mean the goalpost is almost right to the top.

I let the camera warm up to 65, did the black calibration and save to HS, no noticeable improvement. I did see that if I go into the calibration management that there are two calibrations stored but that I just get a 'calibration failed' if I try to load them.

I tried saving a calibration to the SSD but the calibration management now shows three calibrations in the list but also says that there a 0 available to apply.

I'm wondering if that is the glitch, the calibrations aren't actually being applied?
 
I was up all night running test. This is what i figured out at least on my end. DON'T USE THE BETA BUILD!

1. I was on the latest beta build and found that it is ALOT less forgiving in when you change your shutter speed from one to another. I noticed huge changes and purple casting when going from 1/100 to even only a 1/120 which is a issue for me seeing that while i was doing my test for my client i was switching from 50p and 60p and the noise increase from one to another to keep a 180 degree shutter was causing all the noise i was seeing in my image.

2. Responding to my own comment about "holding the calibration after restarts" doesn't seem to be a problem with the release build but is a HUGE problem with the BETA. Now i know the calibration profile we make when we black shade doesn't change i do believe that with the BETA build the noise pattern it is correcting for changes every time you restart the camera and so a black shading has to be re-done each time boot the camera on. Even if you redo the black shading each time you reboot however like i mentioned above you can only stick to ONE shutter speed.

3. Black Shade at 70 degrees. Did test at both 65 and 70 and found the calibrations which were done at 70 head up a lot better even when running the camera lower temperatures. I literally place my camera in the freezer to check.

I think i've figured out how to get the camera to behave the way i like it. Now i really miss all the features in the beta build like RG4, DragonColor, Horizon line, sexy new UI but at this time its not worth even shooting one frame with it in my opinion. Now let me reinforce that these finding worked for me but hopefully this insight might help others dial their dragons in.

EDIT: Also these test where only done at 50p and 60p Base frame rates with average shutters between 1/100 and 1/1000 to test the shutter range of the calibration. I noticed that the noise produced on the beta build was MUCH less and more consistent at a 24p BASE and shutter speeds lower then 1/60.
 
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