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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Very High Red-orange Noise Levels Without Black Shade

Ivan McCullough said:
Ok, I am gonna come out and say it and risk the wrath of those who would label me an unbeliever for questioning the wisdom of how RED designs their cameras but.....

Is the problem, at least in part, due to the very touchy, sensitive, and somewhat esoteric nature of the cameras needing a black shading calibration by necessity in what can only be described as ever increasing permutations of complexity. i.e resolution change (maybe not), shutter, temperature (variable). and now some say go hot, some say go cold....
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Always wondered how the competitions camera do black shades unseen/or don't do them at all.

I always thought about it like an electric car you needed to get out and push to start. Yeah the specs of the RED car are great (sometimes better than the competition) but I have to get out and push it to start.
 
I am confused. I shot one of the first tests on Jarred's Dragon and beta firmware. I shot various frame rates and never reblackshaded. Saw the footage on 80 foot screen in 4K at IBC.No noise.
Shot feature film on Dragon. Blackshading by DIT once a week. No Noise.
Shot all reshoots of Transformers 4 on Dragon (anamorphic). Used both Bay's Dragons and mine. Blackshaded once a week. Haven't heard about noise.

One thing I will say is that we always shot at 800 ISO and never underexposed. I think if some of you are having issues you should send a ticket into RED.....

Shouldn't be happening
 
Peter Lyons Collister said:
I am confused. I shot one of the first tests on Jarred's Dragon and beta firmware. I shot various frame rates and never reblackshaded. Saw the footage on 80 foot screen in 4K at IBC.No noise.
Shot feature film on Dragon. Blackshading by DIT once a week. No Noise.
Shot all reshoots of Transformers 4 on Dragon (anamorphic). Used both Bay's Dragons and mine. Blackshaded once a week. Haven't heard about noise.

One thing I will say is that we always shot at 800 ISO and never underexposed. I think if some of you are having issues you should send a ticket into RED.....

Shouldn't be happening
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Yup. What Peter said.
 
Just to be sure, do you see the red noise in the lcd when the camera is just power up? Of course you would only see it if you have the cap on the lens and are in a dark environnement (so you don't have to many reflections on the lcd)? So I know if I should open a ticket. Thanks

Also do you think it is normal that the red channel is not at the same level as the green and the blue in the pic I've posted?
 
TheBied said:
Black shading at your current exposure will always yield the best results.
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Every now and than I have received (as colorist ) RD3 very noisy shot at 800 ISo in daylight (and pretty much well exposed ) I assume the reason was the lack of black shade (or a wrong one ).

So , technically , when a blacke shade is required ? ( I heard change of ISO , change of resolution , change of fps etc...and even change of room temperature )..

So, what is the official list of factors/settings that influence the noise floor and so requie a black shading ?)

Thanks
G
 
Gabriele Turchi said:
So , technically , when a blacke shade is required ? ( I heard change of ISO , change of resolution , change of fps etc...and even change of room temperature )..

So, what is the official list of factors/settings that influence the noise floor and so requie a black shading ?)

Thanks
G
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There are only TWO factors. Period.

#1: Sensor Temp.

#2: Exposure time (shutter speed)

And yeah ... it's in the manual. And it's in the HELP in the camera on the newest firmware.
 
I wonder if some folks are checking the SSD checkbox in the Blackshade Dialouge and not also checking the "slot" to load the calibration into the camera. If you do that - you create a blackshade on the SSD - but NOT in the camera. I dunno ... I'm just trying to figure out why people are having issues - because we are not seeing any of these things.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
I wonder if some folks are checking the SSD checkbox in the Blackshade Dialouge and not also checking the "slot" to load the calibration into the camera. If you do that - you create a blackshade on the SSD - but NOT in the camera. I dunno ... I'm just trying to figure out why people are having issues - because we are not seeing any of these things.
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One of my theories is along these lines too. ie. BS is performed but this BS is somehow not selected...
 
Ivan McCullough said:
One of my theories is along these lines too. ie. BS is performed but this BS is somehow not selected...
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The dialouge could be more intuituve for sure - and they need to hide "factory" because you can NOT load into the "factory" slot - BUT - on some builds of the firmware - in calibration management - the camera acts like it is loading the cal map into the "factory" slot - but ... it's NOT.

I've suggested a few times for "factory" to be hidden - since you always have to update firmware which requires a new calibration - it's basically irrelavent to the user one day after they have the camera.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
The dialouge could be more intuituve for sure - and they need to hide "factory" because you can NOT load into the "factory" slot - BUT - on some builds of the firmware the camera acts like it is loading the cal map into the "factory" slot - but ... it's NOT.

I've suggested a few times for "factory" to be hidden - since you always have to update firmware which requires a new calibration - it's basically irrelavent to the user one day after they have the camera.
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I agree, this needs to be more clearly defined. I found myself pondering which option to choose (o.k., o.k... I didn't read the manual due to lack of plot '-) but I guess I chose the correct one because so far I haven't encountered the noise problem of others. Build 5.1.51
 
Peter's suggestion is right. If everyone experiencing this problem opens tickets with Red they will be able to see how widespread the problem is.

In my case I've been on the phone with tech support, submitted multiple logs and sample clips. Exposure, OLPF version, firmware and black shading methodology are all correct yet the noise persists.
 
My experience with Dragon has been the same too; the red extra noise and the bad crazy flickering.

This is the response from RED to my case:

RED SUPPORT (RED Digital Cinema)
May 30 04:25 PM
Hello,
I have received word back from our Engineering team on the results of your log file and clip. The log appears to be clean, so there do not appear to be any issues with the camera or sensor hardware itself, at least that we can determine through the log file results alone.
The DRAGON sensor is far more sensitive, and has a much higher Dynamic Range. As such, it will respond differently from the MYSTERIUM-X sensor. The Black Shading Calibration is much more noticeable when not correct, and it is important to wait for the camera to heat up to normal operating temperature, and Black Shade for Current FPS/Exposure in order to ensure a clean image. Then, on the MX Sensor, users would often switch to 12800 ISO to verify the blackshade worked, while this method is no longer necessary/recommended on the much more sensitive DRAGON sensor.
Are you seeing the same issues outside of ISO 6400 and 12800? There is really no reason to need to raise the ISO this high for standard usage, as this setting is in essence just a metadata change. Hopefully this helps by way of explanation.. Feel free to let me know if you have any additional questions, and I will be happy to help!
 
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I picked up my Dragon last week. I know what you're talking about. Even after a few black shades and applying them, key point is to apply them, I see the red speckled noise especially starting at 800 in dark, underexposed areas. Underexposed areas. Gotta bring up some light or lower your ISO for cleaner scenes. But, it's all relative to the light/space your in to begin with. At 2000 ISO in daylight, not that I'd ever shoot it, it's fairly clean because it's being fed. Now, 2000 in a dark scene? That will be noisy.

With Dragon, I'm comfortable getting clean images at 250-800 for dark and shadow filled shots. Nothing above that.
Same goes for daylight.
 
Antoine Baumann said:
how do you know you applied the Black shade?
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You just select it and hit apply.

You can then use camera info to check the settings.

Also, sensors love light. Any photosites that are light starved can turn into noise. Open up, even at 800, just don't clip and it's all good, or let go what you want to blow out (like film) and hit the darker parts of the scene with a bit more light.

Battistella
 
First test shots with my Dragon showed this orange/red noise issue 4-6 stops under key.

I buy the idea that making a more sensitive sensor will invite more photon shot noise, etc.

I'm ready to spend a few hours messing with the black shading, evaluating the images and hopefully storing some cal maps. I have no problem getting all "Zen" with my camera and digging into its response characteristics. What will not fly, at least in my world, is having to do 12 minute Black Shades several times per day in the flurry of production.

Looking forward to a definitive statement from RED about best practices.

Cheers - #19
 
I opened a ticket with red right after I noticed the problem about a week ago and they are seeing the same issue and have passed it over to the engineers they told me to check out what might be causing it. So don't think all of us are doing something wrong it's a real issue.
 
I went back and looked at the r3ds from Geoff boyles London test.

the blacks are pristine in those r3ds, but as he moved the exposure up things got even cleaner.

One other thing.

Make sure you set your R3ds to dragon color and red gamma 4 or REDlog film. I had to create presets to have those settings default in camera otherwise it's RG3 RC3 is what comes out on the metadata right out of the camera.

On some low light stuff, I can see this kind "clumpy" red noise on some shots, especially if I boost to 800 ISO. On anything well lit it does not seem to be a problem.

I hope it can be addressed in FW and color science.

battistella
 
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