Underwater Bubble Blowers User Group Thread NEW

[Sanjin Jukic]

Jacek,

btw, a question about Optimator, how much it costs and what about availability?

Also BandPro from LA never answered on the same question when I sent them email long ago.

Is it possible to buy direct if someone is from EU?

 

[Michael Hastings]

I have several customers using the Nikon current 14mm lens (it has a manual iris) on either RED Nikon mount or on Birger with simple adapter. (more on that later) and simple bent shaft controls.

Jacek is sending me a mount to evaluate. From the pictures it appears to be extremely well made and looks like it actually will be easier to do simple control of the iris on the G lenses than even the straight manual lenses and with G Nikon there are wider lenses available that cover RED S35.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Here's something interesting, a 14mm f2.8 aspherical lens, with a manual iris, for list price 259 Euros = 382. U.S. dollars:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0909/09091801samyung14mm.asp

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Optimator info

Optimator info

Jacek,

btw, a question about Optimator, how much it costs and what about availability?

Also BandPro from LA never answered on the same question when I sent them email long ago.

Is it possible to buy direct if someone is from EU?

Hi Sanjin,
The first production units will ship very soon,
Just keep trying BandPro and I'll remind Nir to email you back next time I talk to him.

 

[Michael Hastings]

My Aquavideo is still with the original controllers, and I need to modify this in some way. I was actually thinking mainly about your choice for topside work, in combination with underwater. The Birger isn't really suited to underwater shots without some type of mechanical connection between the housing and the Empiro controller, which I think could be fairly easy to make. It is after all a big twist and turn know, and (from what I gather) with pushbuttons to switch between focus and aperture. At least for the Aquavideo this could be a route to go. But this I don't know for sure, and will have to test. Mike Hastings probably has some ideas here. Mike?

I daren't modify the Gates! For this I will continue to use geared controls, no need to change this setup.


I am considering the Birger for the following reasons:
A. I need a wide range of focal lenghts for topside work, from extreme wide to 300 - 600mm tele. Some of the primes must be fast, 1.4 or better. Also I need a good macro lens for underwater use. Doing this with cine lenses will set me back at least $200.000!
B. I currently do not own any PL mount lenses, except for the Duclos which I am still waiting for (I might sell it or rent out on a permanent basis if I go the Birger route)
C. I have access to a good set of manual Canon lenses, and some Zeiss primes originally made for Contax but fitted with a Canon adapter. Hopefully these will work with the Birger (only manual control of course). New Canons with AF and stabilizer are aplenty and inexpensive.
D. Canon lenses focus the "right" way, i.e. same direction as cine lenses. Nikons do not. Small point, but important to some.
E. I would like to be able to control the lenses remotely, and Birger with Empiro will allow me to do this. This is for topside work and some UW, typically crane shots with the Aquavideo in and out of the water. Also river/waves (white water) shooting where I need to have both hands on the camera handles and a camera assistant focuses from boat/shore.

Here is a photo to get the discussion started. I'll explain more about underwater controllers a little later when I get a few minutes.

But one thing to understand is that not only is Birger a smart mount for EF lenses but it is sort of a universal dumb mount because you can use inexpensive $20 adapters like the one in upper left to mount Nikon, Zeiss Contax/Yashica (probably the best, most cost effective, and closest to a cine lens there is), Leica, Pentax, some 645 medium format lenses, etc.

This is because Canon has the shortest Flange focal or backfocus distance (44mm) which allows the couple of millimeters needed to make an adapter that still will allow full range focus.

This is not possible with Nikon because it is 46.5mm so longer than the others.

The adapters are basically as solid as the normal mount (none would be as solid as the PL or optitek.)

Thus at $1285 for the birger mount (without impero) you get a smart mount for Canon EF lenses with iris control on the mount and either manual focus (or remote through wireless or wired to a computer or the impero or future knobs or our control board) This is not that much more money than a Nikon dumb mount - in relation to the overall cost of a redone system - yet you have total flexibility in terms of lenses. If you only use one Canon lens it would seem to me to be a bigger bargain. The tokina 11-16 is a perfect example - the mount gives you iris control (buttons right on the mount) even if you don't have any focus controllers. With a superwide lens, direct manual focus is easy even with the limited focus throw of modern nikon and EF lenses so the Duclos mods aren't really necessary if you aren't working in a heavy cinema follow focus environment. And $1285 for the mount plus $599 for the lens is a lot less than the modification cost.

Nikon vs. Canon: I bought Canon because of the Birger mount but also since then have appreciated the ability to use the Zeiss C/Y lenses on the Canon body for both still and movie work (I have the $700 T1i - the poor man's 5DMkII/7D).

As far as if you have an investment in one or the other - I have found that good Canon and Nikon cameras and lenses are such a commodity item that you can easily sell one and get the equivalent with little or no loss.

PS Birger has just completed a pl mount for their REDONE Birger which simplifies switching - the PL replaces the front portion so you don't remove the adjuster portion from the camera to switch. It should be on its way to RED for approval in the next few days. It is purely mechanical so shouldn't alter things.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Picture of Motors

Picture of Motors

Posted before but customer wanted to see how motors could be used in AV RED housing.

 

[Amund Lie]

Sweet.
How is radio reception in there?

Posted before but customer wanted to see how motors could be used in AV RED housing.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Sweet.
How is radio reception in there?

Amund:

This was done by Sebastian Cramer in Germany and was setup for a surface/split water shoot and from what I understand wireless radio was no problem. Evin Grant has also done several shoots like that using Bartech. Both were with the PVC. Since the aluminum housing backplate is acrylic it would probably work okay as well.

But remember radio doesn't travel through water so unless the controller is right up against the housing it probably won't work. Heden has an AE-2 and AE-3 wire controller that should be pretty easy to hook up as well.

I am trying to get some more information from Heden. Sent them an email over a week ago but you know how us small companies are sometimes.

Link to Heden (Sweden):

http://www.heden-engineering.com/p-cu1.htm


I had high hopes for the viewfactor inclino since the price is right but it seems like they may be too big anyway.

I'd be curious if you guys can get pricing information in Europe. Abel cine shows prices for the Heden motors at somewhere between USD $2100 and $2800 depending on which version. They don't show a price for the AE-wired controllers but my guess would be $1000-$1500

Personally I think this is the way to go if you are trying to do full control of PL lenses. Even if it is $8 to $10K it is money spent on the motors and such it is money spent on regular cinema gear rather than the superspecialized gearing of an underwater housing and can be used on the surface. And easily moved to a future housing.

Plus you have much more ability to put the control knob whereever you want rather than up by the lens where they need to be for a mechanical gear linkage.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

I made a full lens control for under $1,000 using RC servos.

Unlike the "ViewFactor creation in the making", my servos do not have any drift and tracking is exact, repeatable and precise. It didn't take 3 years either.

Servos use titanium gears and are strong enough for any lens. I fact, the torque needs to be limited (programmable). How strong? You can't stop the servo with your fingers, it will break your fingers...

The range can be programmed (up to 180 degrees). Different gears can be attached to extend the range. The motors are noisy, though.

The motors are tiny and take very little space as pictured.

Single channel (up to two synchronised motors) or dual channel controllers are available.

Edit: How I scored post #69, I have no idea, but I did :blush:

 

[Pawel Achtel]

More pictures with large gear. Also picture of single channel (two motor for 3D) controller attached.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Pawel: thanks for posting this. I hadn't gotten around to emailing you but meant to.

Funny, I had just been googling servo motors and controllers, and saw some inexpensie robotics RC servo controller boards and wondered if RC servos would work. You've answered the question. I have a bunch of those servos laying around from when I used to do RC with my son. Sounds like you don't even need especially strong ones, the normal decent ones should work.

I don't think noise is usually much of an issue. If sound is important it is easy to run a hydrophone from outside the housing.

Are those titanium gears custom made? Or are you talking titanium gears inside the servo?

Anyway, nice job!

 

[George Evatt]

Hign Speed Phantom Camera underwater

Hign Speed Phantom Camera underwater

Hi,
It’s great the U/W shooters thread is back up!

I have just done a shoot where we successfully housed a Phantom high speed camera inside my RED ONE housing. The DP was Sam Collins and I was operating. We were doing shots of animals entering the water at speeds between 500-1500 fps. The shots looked extraordinary when played back at 25fps.

All camera functions (except lens controls) are controlled by a laptop computer connected to the camera via an Ethernet cable. We had to externally power the camera as it takes 30volts and made significant modifications to mount lens servo motors to the camera. I was also worried that it would get very hot inside the housing as it is reputed to be a hot running camera; however the temp stayed at around 22degrees which was cool and certainly much cooler than a housed RED ONE.

It is really exciting to do high speed UW and I am hoping to do a test shoot soon where we can post some footage samples. Has anyone else used the Phantom camera U/W?


George
www.coralseatv.com

 

[Pawel Achtel]

I have just done a shoot where we successfully housed a Phantom high speed camera inside my RED ONE housing...

Wow, cool stuff, George! I'd love to see the footage some time. That baby tiger looks cute.

 

[Constantine Tyrintzis]

hello you can even use winch sail servos they do more rotations and you can limite them from the tx down tp desireble angle but a few things. i used to have rc servos for lenses for years you will find that they are not always so accurate.i even made a zoom motor with a modified servo for countless rotations a very small servo with a small gear final so it would stop at the ends of the lense.generally they work very well for soundless shots with very little cost and many down the road spares. and they wont loose signal for a mile as long as there is optical site very effective. now that i will remake my 9metre blimp for aerial i will make a system like this only more elegant in brackets and boxing the system tx 10 ch for remote head and lens and gyros. nice one

 

[Johnny Friday]

The mount costs $750 and is available now.
In the current form is strictly mechanical but we are working on electronic interface that will be offered as a ProLock upgrade in near future. The upgrade will activate the Silent Wave Motors in the newer Nikon lenses and allow for focus, iris control (electronic-mechanical iris control is already there) and VR operation for lenses equipped with it.

Amund,
Stock from Jacek it's $750, but with the gears for your Gates Controls, you'll have to order that - or the entire setup from Gates. I know i paid $850 for the whole setup from Jacek with HIS gears, but his gears won't clear the bulkhead of the Gates Housing, therefore, he's manufacturing twenty gears that are shimmed forward slightly so the gears on the gates will mate properly with his mount. Talk to Gates first as i am not sure if you buy everything from Gates or just the new gears. Jacek could also chime in here and tell us that procedure.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

orderingmount/Gates gear

orderingmount/Gates gear

Amund,
Stock from Jacek it's $750, but with the gears for your Gates Controls, you'll have to order that - or the entire setup from Gates. I know i paid $850 for the whole setup from Jacek with HIS gears, but his gears won't clear the bulkhead of the Gates Housing, therefore, he's manufacturing twenty gears that are shimmed forward slightly so the gears on the gates will mate properly with his mount. Talk to Gates first as i am not sure if you buy everything from Gates or just the new gears. Jacek could also chime in here and tell us that procedure.

I'm not sure if Gates wants to bother reselling Prolock. You can order the mount now and get familiar with it and contact Gates about the special gear. The gears are being machined and should be at Gates before the end of this month. Or you can contact Gates about the whole setup-either way will work for me...

 

[Rich Schaefer]

Pawel,

Good job Mate! Impressive stuff, I love it when users just get smart and make their own shit! Keep it coming, I want to see more... where did the circuit board come from?

Wish me luck with the VF nightmare.

Prost,
Rich

 

[Amund Lie]

Michael et al:

Rather than plowing through the 600 or so pages about Birger to find out, can anyone give me a guesstimate on Birger and Empiro shipping times?

Think I'll try out this combo in the Aquavideo housing for an upcoming shallow shoot where hopefully the bluetooth signals will penetrate.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Michael et al:

Rather than plowing through the 600 or so pages about Birger to find out, can anyone give me a guesstimate on Birger and Empiro shipping times?

Think I'll try out this combo in the Aquavideo housing for an upcoming shallow shoot where hopefully the bluetooth signals will penetrate.

Mounts have been shipping from stock for quite awhile and I think he probably has Imperos in stock too.

BTW Birger is also easy to control via wire from a laptop. That has been available all along - Peppermill was doing that in July 2008 over a year ago.

My circuit board also functions fine for that.

My hesitation with selling it set up for housing control in actual underwater use has more to do with the somewhat crude physical implementation necessitated by the very low volume, and the finicky (sometimes unrealistic) expectations of REDUSERs and not necessarily being willing to deal with that or the potential liability for the price people seem to expect or are willing to pay.

PS also there is a PL mount front for the Birger on its way as well which will simplify switching back and forth.

 

[Michael Hastings]

This is in response to a PM question from Amund about the new PL mount for the Birger:

The birger mount is two pieces 1) you have the part that bolts to the red and gives you backfocus adjustment. That part has the stuff that isn't camera specific: the Lemo connectors, the antenna and the three iris/setup buttons, then 2) you have the actual lens mount. If it is a smart mount like the Canon (or the future Nikon smart mount) then it has the lens contacts and microcontroller.

However you can remove that second part and put another mount on and the advantage is you are only touching the first part of the birger mount - you aren't doing anymore screwing/attaching to the RED so it is both quicker and more secure. In this case it would be the PL mount, but it could be almost any other mount, however it isn't really necessary for him to make a dumb Nikon, Leica, or Contax/Yashica mount since it is so easy and cheap to buy the little adapters to go on the regular EF mount for those lenses. The PL requires him to make a separate front piece which is what he did. I believe it will probably be about $300. It isn't really an upgrade - it is just a separate piece. You remove the four screws and replace the EF with the PL and screw the four screws back in. If tolerances are tight enough you may not even need to backfocus.

The PL mounts are already made and being plated now and then will be sent to RED for approval. Since no connection/disconnection is made to the RED it shouldn't be any problem.

The picture shows a top and face view of the Birger. The four empty screw holes are for the bolts that bolt to the RED. The smaller four screws are the mount screws that would be used to switch from EF to PL (or any other version.)

The adapter (about $25) is one that is used to adapt contax/yashica mounts to EF. They make the same thing for Nikon and other lenses. You can't use those adapters on a nikon mount because it would be too far from the RED sensor to backfocus.

BTW The distances stay the same so should be no reason it can't be used in your gates housing with PL lenses.