UI Rant...

[Ariana]

It appears that with XML support in redcine that third parties could now easily support EDLs quite easily. Same for redline too? If redtools can do this I think it's a very positive step forward to enabling thrid parties and allowing red to focus more on their core. That's more important then spreading too thin and trying to solve all the workflows themselves.


With all the changes happening to the camera and software, I think it's obvious red is not dumb and will make the right choices. The expectation to have a finished workflow right now today seem to be ignoring the speed at which the camera is being developed and the constant improvement. I expect the same with the software and look forward to the improvements in each release. I believe the presumption that red needs to be told repeatedly what they need to implement is false. I do believe they know what they're doing because no one else has been able to even come close.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Agreed.

There is some evidence that posting to this board has helped solving stuff, though:

hot issue
cold issue
PL mount
PL mount grease
And quite a few UI changes

AND they have stated that they want feedback on the apps.

Don't take this as dismay, just as hopefull hints @ what would make thing better.

(And: No. I don't really think they haven't thought about it first. But maybe when Firmware 15 is out, is a good time to look at these issues...)


Gunleik

 

[laguun]

Is it really the place of a camera company to provide conform and EDL tools for free? Do sony, panasonic, thompson, jvc, arri, or panavision privide anything close to redcine or even remotely close to conform or edl support?

The main difference is that sony, panasonic, jvc, canon etc basing footage with hdcam/dvcpro/hdv can be loaded directly in its maximum quality and/or offline with full tc/edl support into any professional nonlineareditor on any platform. And this is the industries way of working, and it doesn´t work well with reds solution for >95% of the average joe editors.

This is because
a) there is -no- edl support in reds footage pipeline for avid, discreet, quantel, sony, adobe etc - and these are by far the huge majority of the professional market.
b) red will prevent 3hrd party from the mayor players in professional postproduction support until NAB

Therefore red really needs an edl/tc support in one of its tools - if this will not be available soon any red production in any not really prepared posthouse or collaboration between different houses will be slow, error prone, result in less than optimal results and the camera will gain the reputation of the "complicated and slow camera" in postproduction which cant be in the interest of red or its customers.

Furthermore reds needs -wide- support for their codec. Right now, most of the big suites can´t use native redcode raw, the windows world can´t use their codec, and the linux world can´t. This naturally makes any owner of any posthouse highly skeptical regarding shooting on red, instead of embracing it. "Wait and see" instead of "lets go".

I'm not sure I want RED to start doing post tools when thats not their expertise. I want to focus on better quality images and faster processing and third party solutions. I don't expect to get everything for free just because I can ask for it here. But I will...

The camera is useless without its software, as you -need- redcine (or ra/rl) to use its awesome images. Its an -integral- part of the camera. In a Sony hdcam, Panasonic Varicam, Panavision Genesis etc all this processing is built in the camcorder, red has is on a separate computer - which is great for highend work imho.

But the postproduction workflow as it is now, is more incompatible, challenging, complicated and slow than with almost any camera of the competition, which is sad - as red besides that is an -outstanding- camera.

Its early on in the game, and i (and many others hope) that red now, that they successfully designed the most innovative camera which i ever saw since 1989, also closed the missing gaps in the postproduction. Basic, primitive EDL support for redcine and/or redline and freezing the fileformat to allow the postproduction industry to use the cameras excellent footage. The postproduction workflow, as it is now, reminds me of an lamborghini on bicycle wheels who can only run on -one- special racetrack with real slicks.

Can I have a free scratch system with every camera?

hrrhrr, i would prefer more powerful system for networked realtime 4k - would fit the camera better. i´ll have a dvs clipster with mutliseat 4k san and a filmlight baselight, and if we are at it, could we throw in one sony Srx 4k projector?

 

[BigLu]

Wow Lucas,

That was such a perfect example that lets me believe and assures me. This entire new everything camera, company, codec, workflow, people, ect.

Is gonna be the future.
I get frustrated with things about RC also.
I just wish we were in ver. 3.1 by now where I know things would be so much more fun, stable and useful.
Everything ver. 1 frustrates me to no ends I understand that.

So, I feel the sliders kinda suck, I wish there were scopes unless im missing something, I don't like the curves only has 3 points I feel like I need 4 minimum, I CAN'T Stand how it completely owns my ass when I open the program, saving sucks, crashing sucks, and 3 way color wheels would be oh so helpful. That's my feelings.

Flip side your program is awesome when I figure something new out.
One of my favorites to play with.

Thank you for giving me the feeling that this company is doing everything they can to do this right.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

i´ll have a dvs clipster with mutliseat 4k san and a filmlight baselight

Hello Iaguun,

How do you hadle RAW files and more specifically R3D files?

Do you use transcoded files from REDCINE/ALERT?

Thanks.

Pat

 

[laguun]

Hello Iaguun,

How do you hadle RAW files and more specifically R3D files?

Do you use transcoded files from REDCINE/ALERT?

Thanks.

Pat

for us the workflow is indeed debayer in the beginning, not in the end, as with that approach you can work with -any- system and networked without restrictions. Also, you donßt have to render everything at the end of the pipeline, what you have with the existing R3D basing workflows.

but you quoted me out of context - the baselight/clipster/srx4k should be given free with every camera was a joke regarding a former post.

 

[Ariana]

The main difference is that sony, panasonic, jvc, canon etc basing footage with hdcam/dvcpro/hdv can be loaded directly in its maximum quality and/or offline with full tc/edl support into any professional nonlineareditor on any platform.

That is very untrue. HDV took forever to be supported by any applications!
When I first got an HDV JVC camera, I could do nothing with it for at least 8 months. There was a sample extraction program that barely worked at all.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

That is very untrue. HDV took forever to be supported by any applications!
When I first got an HDV JVC camera, I could do nothing with it for at least 8 months. There was a sample extraction program that barely worked at all.

... and I think that made a great blow to the sale of the (at the time of the launch) quite interesting JVC cams.

Gunleik

 

[laguun]

That is very untrue. HDV took forever to be supported by any applications!
When I first got an HDV JVC camera, I could do nothing with it for at least 8 months. There was a sample extraction program that barely worked at all.

correct, we also had one of the first batch and sold it later on.
Also HDCAM was problematic in the first months (due to the whole 1035 -> 1080 issues).

But all theses issues were fixed within some months, in the case of JVC btw. by cineform, which also would like to support red but shall not until april.

 

[Joel Kaye]

That is very untrue. HDV took forever to be supported by any applications!
When I first got an HDV JVC camera, I could do nothing with it for at least 8 months. There was a sample extraction program that barely worked at all.

And is was a horrible strategy decision. Until Cineform solved it (for $500) that camera was unusable.

I don't think any rational person would advise RED follow suit BUT RED finds itself in a similar situation but with one major difference.

You seem to be proposing that RED should leave it to another company to solve their post workflow issues. Fine, but you don't seem to be considering that currently RED forbids access to it's codec so this problem can be solved by someone else.

Knowing that, what would you suggest?

People here have been asking for one of two things. RED should do it or they should let someone else do it. Those are pretty reasonable propositions I think.

The only other argument is Luki's - which is "you guys don't need it no matter how much you think you do."

I don't think that as reasonable a position. I don't see how that one's a winner for RED.

 

[Ariana]

What I am proposing is stating the obvious over and over is not going to help the situation. From talking to the guys at red it's quite clear they intend to do everything we want but they're asking us for a little patience on the software side it not trivial instantly do everything at once.

Condemning and harassing red at every opportunity while they are trying to give us the most they can is a very crude approach IMHO.

 

[robbo]

What I am proposing is stating the obvious over and over is not going to help the situation. From talking to the guys at red it's quite clear they intend to do everything we want but they're asking us for a little patience on the software side it not trivial instantly do everything at once.

Condemning and harassing red at every opportunity while they are trying to give us the most they can is a very crude approach IMHO.

Sheesh - I really don't think anyone in this thread is doing that.:bleh:

I for one really appreciate reading this sort of discussion - it's very open with tremendous insight into the workflow and needs of those that are on a completely different level than me.

Keep roll'n guys ...

 

[Ariana]

Everytime I read one of these threads it's the same old broken record whining. Obviously Jim responds to requests here but it seems like people now believe that if they complain enough about something that RED will do it. How long do we expect that to last? The more we abuse it, the less we get heard.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Everytime I read one of these threads it's the same old broken record whining. Obviously Jim responds to requests here but it seems like people now believe that if they complain enough about something that RED will do it. How long do we expect that to last? The more we abuse it, the less we get heard.

1.we are paying MONEY for the camera and the support.
2.the forum helped red to make their product better in a really really short periode of time based upon the informations they gain through this forum for free.
3.and yes, they are maniacs, and want to deliver the best within their limits, we are maniacs too and are pushing them to their limits, and if something is not possible or will not happen (like 2k scaled) its ok..., but if something happens(like so many times over the last months) its
a milestone for everyone...

 

[laguun]

Obviously Jim responds to requests here but it seems like people now believe that if they complain enough about something that RED will do it. How long do we expect that to last? The more we abuse it, the less we get heard.

Its not at all about complaining.
This forum helps red knowing and understanding what their customers think, what they are loving about product and the company, what they think is bad or should be improved. thats -real- sci-fi customer relationship management.

many manufacturers do not understand how valuable customer feedback is, red does, and if you look at the whole evolution of the red program, there are -plenty- of excellent improvements which red based on customer feedback. from features to bugfixes, from products to policies, also to new softwares, as redline.

and the post workflow is the main construction area right now, the camera itself now is really leaving its beta phase and the post workflow is basicly entering it. jim wrote on another thread: "We don't know what we are doing.
That is the truth.
We have never done any of this stuff before. Everything is new to us. Every single thing.
...
I guess the point is... try to relax on us a bit. We are attempting the impossible. But we can't do it overnight. We are listening. And changing. And improving. Everyday.
All we ask for is your patience."

And therefore every single post on this forum, every information in these forums helps red to judge, align and improve its strategy.

 

[robbo]

Articulate and precise, laguun !

<brilliant>

 

[Ariana]

Its not at all about complaining.

Absolutely the concerns are valid but most of it is complaints and demanding that things happen NOW or why things aren't there NOW. There's very little politeness here. Back to my original point, there are graceful ways to give feedback and most of what happens when it come to the most vocal guys is anything but that. It's our responsibility to each other as users/owners to cultivate a positive relationship with RED so we can continue to get such responsiveness from them over the years to come.

There's a reason why other manufacturers don't do what Red is doing. It's because users turn into cranky brats that expect everything for nothing and then the companies listen less and less and less. I've been in a company where that happened and do we really want that to happen with Red?

If you were to plot complaining/whining/demanding compared to nicely asking, you'll notice that red responds more often in the later thread.

My 8 year old know how to get what he wants better than most people here.

 

[Joel Kaye]

If you were to plot complaining/whining/demanding compared to nicely asking, you'll notice that red responds more often in the later thread.

If you can post specific examples of what you consider rude or whiny it would be helpful.

I just re-read this entire thread and I didn't see a single person demanding anything "NOW". A couple people asked for an idea of when then next update would be out. I personally didn't see much I thought was whiny or rude. I think the rudest thing in this thread was when I said I thought some of the button conventions in RedCine were bizarre. I think I'm pretty much right about that though.

I'd wager most Internet forums are a lot less friendly than this one.

For instance, is this post to you rude in your mind? Just trying to get a frame a reference - perhaps the culture where you live is different from others who post here.

 

[laguun]

There's very little politeness here...
My 8 year old know how to get what he wants better than most people here.

ahem. self-contradiction

The red post workflow right now isnt anywhere as elegant and cool as the camera. Its slow, complicated and restrained right now. The word is getting out and its time to solve that.

The customer dont need rhetorics, they need open codecs, edl support and no one complained that it would take a months or two from now. red do far was also as cool as they were listening to dps and camera people. The post crowd right now is scared/suspicious and that should change. I fail to see any impolitenesses in stating these facts.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

The red post workflow right now isnt anywhere as elegant and cool as the camera. Its slow, complicated and restrained right now. The word is getting out and its time to solve that.

No - the workflow you want is slow. There are many very good and very fast workflows being used by post facilities all over the world.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA