UI Rant...

[Emery Wells]

Red and I love each other but sometimes you need to give a little tough love. I know it's been discussed elsewhere but the lack of OS conventions in RC is atrocious and feels like an app from 8 years ago. I get that RC is based on the code from Scratch, but many of scratches conventions just don't translate well to RC.

Take for example the 'invalidate' button that shows up after rendering. Im not sure what purpose it served in Scratch but I don't see it serving any purpose in RC. Why must I invalidate my render to render again? Perhaps a safety so as to not accidentally erase a previous render? While that's all fine and good, a modern app would simply warn you once you hit render and give you the option to quit or proceed.

Can we talk about the 'yes/no' convention used throughout the app? The word asinine comes to mind. If I want to delete a stack, I have to click 4 times before its finally gone. First I select the stack and hit delete, then confirm - yes. You'd think this was good enough but then a 2nd delete button shows up. Ok, so delete again, then confirm - yes. If I were to make a mistake and accidentally delete something or change a setting, Id simply visit my good friend Command Z. No need to warn me 4 times.

This is not meant to take away from any of the fantastic work the RED team has been putting out. I've been using RC fairly successfully for quite some time and the app has great potential but I would throw the UI away and start over. Most of the structural/workflow elements of the UI work beautifully but the implementation of sliders, buttons, and mouse events are in the dumps. I would even contribute to the design just to be a good sport about it.

Being the Red fanboy that I am, I find it difficult to say anything negative about this revolutionary company but sometimes you have to call a spade a spade and well... RCs UI is seriously lacking Course, that is easy to say from my seat, a designer who gets to work in pixels, not code.

Ahh, there I said it. I feel better now.

 

[Ariana]

Can you get a money back redfund for RedCine?

 

[Emery Wells]

I think it's *very* important to note that RedCine is FREE. I obviously wrote that post in the heat of the moment after a long battle of trying to get RC to work like I wanted it to.

 

[pliny]

OK so it's free -- but it's also the only viable tool for transferring finishing-quality media from Redcode, or in some cases such as 4k 16x9, the only option for even generating dailies.

The camera and the workflow are a single system, and part of what you pay for. Unless Redcode RAW is widely licensed or up on Sourceforge, criticism of the "freeware" Redcine is 100% in bounds.

 

[Irri]

Can you get a money back redfund for RedCine?

That's a very simplistic view of things. REDCODE is locked down at the moment so there is very little in terms of options for outputing. I sent out 6 commercials yesterday at the settings RedCine was willing to let me.

It's only fair that RED know what issues really make life difficult.

edit, pliny beat me to it

 

[Dylan Reeve]

I've never been a huge fan of application that disregard the conventions of their host OS. But it's increasingly common, especially with more complex apps, and applications where multiplatform support is required.

Even Apple's own 'Color' throws away all conventions (especially annoying with OS x and Windows where the actual filesystem setup is not the same as it's portrayed through the OS tools).

 

[Joel Kaye]

Can we talk about the 'yes/no' convention used throughout the app? The word asinine comes to mind.

Bizarre is what came to my mind.

I'm guessing we'll see RedCine and Scratch alternatives appear after NAB if what Jim says is true about codec development being released to 3rd parties. That would be a boon for the camera.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

That's a very simplistic view of things. REDCODE is locked down at the moment so there is very little in terms of options for outputing. I sent out 6 commercials yesterday at the settings RedCine was willing to let me.

It's only fair that RED know what issues really make life difficult.

edit, pliny beat me to it

I just want to jump in and say that there needs to be MORE of this sort of commentary. Reasonable professionals can discuss and criticize things reasonably. It's called peer review and is an awesome thing.

For anybody reading this... if you've got issues or don't like something, for chrissake say something. If you say something, it might not get better. But if you don't say anything, it definitrely will not get better!

Best,

Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Joel Kaye]

I just want to jump in and say that there needs to be MORE of this sort of commentary. Reasonable professionals can discuss and criticize things reasonably. It's called peer review and is an awesome thing.

For anybody reading this... if you've got issues or don't like something, for chrissake say something. If you say something, it might not get better. But if you don't say anything, it definitrely will not get better!

Probably the simplest thing would be an hour or so of video training going through a handful of typical corrections and complete workflows. This may be addressed already, but I'd like to see color bars and/or other reference images inside the app so there's a quick sanity check you can bring up on your monitor.

The other feature I'd like is RGB levels and curves. Graeme mentioned that had been nixed, but the reasoning was pretty weak to me. They were worried people would screw up their images.... uh... yeah. I think at $25k for a camera people should be allowed to screw up their image if they choose to... and the best place to do it is with RedCode Raw.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I just want to jump in and say that there needs to be MORE of this sort of commentary. Reasonable professionals can discuss and criticize things reasonably. It's called peer review and is an awesome thing.

For anybody reading this... if you've got issues or don't like something, for chrissake say something. If you say something, it might not get better. But if you don't say anything, it definitrely will not get better!

Best,

Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Luki -

Glad you feel this way!

How close are we to a new REDCINE build?

I don't want to start a "premature" XML import/export rant because I have been assuming (hoping) we are gonna see it (more) flushed out in the next build - I know you guys are all working hard, but XML is critical - and I'd like a little comfort factor of what's going to get done (or not get done) in that department - anyway, like I said - I would rather see the next build first - but since you want MORE commentary - I'll bring it soon -

 

[Emery Wells]

I just want to jump in and say that there needs to be MORE of this sort of commentary. Reasonable professionals can discuss and criticize things reasonably. It's called peer review and is an awesome thing.

For anybody reading this... if you've got issues or don't like something, for chrissake say something. If you say something, it might not get better. But if you don't say anything, it definitrely will not get better!

Best,

Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Well, Ill leave bugs and output errors to another thread as this thread is focused on the human machine interface model.

There are two aspects to the model:
1. Beauty
2. Functionality

Im a strong believer in both. If RC was a girl, I probably wouldn't hit on her until I was thoroughly wasted.

The functionality is the bigger, but less sexy issue. One big problem I have is managing clips in the timeline/library. I'd expect to be able to lasso select clips and hit delete. Id expect to be able to shift select a list of concurrent clips. Id expect to be able to command select discontinuous clips (this actually works).
Edit: while experimenting during the writing of this post, I realized I can shift click and ⌘shift click stacks but you have to click in the clip bar. It also does not behave exactly as you'd expect. Play around, you'll see what I mean.

The whole concept of stacks in RC is less useful than it is in Scratch. The 'depth' slider is not intuitive nor needed when importing clips into RC. I can't think of any reason you would not want each clip in it's own stack. I like the idea of a stack for being creative and trying various looks but it could really be confined to appearing as a side stack when using the color tab. On the topic of managing clips, the enable all is also wonky. Id expect to be able to right click and either enable or disable an individual clip. When using the button, you should be able to enable all *and* disable all. Disable all would be more useful for me in the way I've worked with the app thus far. Typically Ill have a whole project loaded and I'll need to export a clip or two. So id have to disable each clip one by one.

The timeline in the library is slightly confusing. Im constantly attempting to click drag the light gray bar (clip selector) that is directly above the timeline which looks remarkably similar to the timeline slider itself. It's not that I don't know which slider is the timeline, but even after using the app for months, I still find myself gravitating towards clip selector. Why is there a clip selector there at all? This convention needs to be revisited.

The yes/no buttons make no sense to me in most instances they are used.

For turning options on and off I'd prefer to see a checkbox.

One of the conventions that is fairly unique to RC that I do like is gestures. However, the gestures should have an off button. Where are the preferences? We would have them if we followed OS conventions

Ill think of more stuff later. That's all for now.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

AS RC is the only practical way to do important stuff with @ the moment...

Apply changes to individual color-channels, including a blur function

 

[pliny]

Along the lines of Mark's XML feature request: EDL import. I have commercial clients making edits and sending me EDLs of their selects, which I output & pipe back to online or VFX. This over & over & over.

So ... lucky me, I have a Scratch system, so conforming my Redcode to EDL is a snap. Without it, I'd be SOL. But we really need to see this in Redcine as well.

EDL/XML and other basic data management tools are critical for using Redcine as a Digital One Light hub.

We'll talk about distributed rendering some other time .........

 

[pliny]

Emery is right - we're already hijacking his thread.

I recall a long time ago the stacks in RC were pitched in a shot/take model. Each stack would contain takes from a certain scene.

But since RC is a "digital one light" app, I have to agree with Emery, stacks don't make a lot of sense. I always set depth to 10 before import.

Stacks may be useful for versioning different looks -- then again -- no SDI out, so am I really color grading in RC in any meaningful way? - Nope, just doing the equivalent of a best light / one light.

 

[laguun]

I just want to jump in and say that there needs to be MORE of this sort of commentary. Reasonable professionals can discuss and criticize things reasonably. It's called peer review and is an awesome thing.

For anybody reading this... if you've got issues or don't like something, for chrissake say something. If you say something, it might not get better. But if you don't say anything, it definitrely will not get better!

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

i fully agree.

 

[Brent J. Craig]

I have never understood why any software would reject the normal UI conventions we are all used to. WHY throw away the years of experience we all have on Macs and PCs and invent something totally new?

It's like writing a manual in pig latin - sure people could figure it out, but why not just stick with what people know?

I realize once you are over the learning curve that some Scratch conventions could be pretty time-saving, but you could keep those and still have a standard UI. Photoshop is an excellent example of software with a standard UI but also many timesaving shortcuts for people who wish to learn them.

 

[Ariana]

OK so it's free -- but it's also the only viable tool for transferring finishing-quality media from Redcode, or in some cases such as 4k 16x9, the only option for even generating dailies.

Understood. Where do Redalert and redline fit in?
Do they provide diffferent functionality?

 

[John Tissavary]

I have never understood why any software would reject the normal UI conventions we are all used to. WHY throw away the years of experience we all have on Macs and PCs and invent something totally new?

It's like writing a manual in pig latin - sure people could figure it out, but why not just stick with what people know?

I realize once you are over the learning curve that some Scratch conventions could be pretty time-saving, but you could keep those and still have a standard UI. Photoshop is an excellent example of software with a standard UI but also many timesaving shortcuts for people who wish to learn them.

OMG - i can't believe that you're using Photoshop - a nightmare of nested menus, a rat's nest of mouseclicks, a complete miasma of tools strewn about the place without regard for workflow or logic...

Adobe's obsession with nested menus is something I just can't understand. It's like 1980's UI convention... JUST WON'T DIE!!!!!!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Unique UIs are the domain of high end software period.

It's a question of marketshare and the demands of efficiency. If your entire job is to run a single application then you want it to be as fast as it possibly can be. Sure it takes a few days->weeks to figure it out completely but it's like the dvorak layout once you figure it out then you're golden. But the Dvorak layout argument raises the sort of 'third rule' of a unique UI that I'm not sure REDCine lives up to and that's whether or not your application is complicated enough to warrant getting clever. Sure the Dvorak layout is wicked fast. But some of us can type in qwerty as fast as we can think. The limitation isn't the interface it's the decision maker.

If however you create a tool that is used once a month by a handful of people then you have to use conventions because nobody can justify learning your design philosophy.

I actually greatly dislike high-end software that uses conventional interfaces exclusively. What makes Maya great (and in my mind one of really the only things which makes maya great) is its gestural marking menu. It's possitively amazing and completely nonstandard. A perfect comparison of a piece of software that is "Standard UI" vs "Unique UI" is After Effects vs Combustion. Now mind you in the latest version of AE they've made huge strides to ripping off combustion but they still aren't quite there as far as the UI. Millions of undockable windows was a nightmare.

I think REDCine is kind of on the line. While many of the efficiency improvements are "nifty" I don't know that people spend enough time in REDCine to warrant having to learn the unique interface. It's more of a get in get out kind of application and could possibly benefit from a more conventional UI. For example gestures are still really iffy on dual monitors which makes sense in a scratch workstation where every aspect of the system is under control, but on a standard desktop you have all sorts of crazy layouts and uses.

----

BTW Photoshop's designers have publicly admitted that even with the CS3 improvements the Photoshop's interface sucks.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Along the lines of Mark's XML feature request: EDL import.
...
So ... lucky me, I have a Scratch system, so conforming my Redcode to EDL is a snap. Without it, I'd be SOL. But we really need to see this in Redcine as well.
...
EDL/XML and other basic data management tools are critical for using Redcine as a Digital One Light hub....

I have had this discussion many many times. I believe strongly that EDL support in REDCINE is a really bad idea. Here's why:

Walk down the path with me. You import an EDL and it's screwed up, and it has to be fixed. Then what? Then you need a way to show the offline reference vs. the conform - a dual viewer - so you know what's right and what's wrong. Then edits have to be fixed, so slip/slide/roller capability has to be added. And since you're also going to be trimming, ripple capability has to be added at both a clip and timeline level. Re-edits and recuts come in, so multiple timeline ability is needed to keep track. Going back to the offline cut for a minute, that means adding ability to support formats other than R3D in REDCINE, which is a huge architectural change.

I have a list of about 30 things that happen *immediately* after EDL support. There is no such thing as "just" EDL support. It would be worthless without all the other tools that go with conforming and supporting EDLs. The process of dealing with EDLs and matching high-rez to low-rez material is conforming and online editing. And REDCINE is not a conforming and online editing application. If you want it to be, that's a different conversation. But REDCINE in its current concept is not designed to do that.

REDCINE has an XML implementation that - right now - allows you to build a list of clips used from in-to-out point and then render those. And that allows users to go effectively from an offline to online system. Avid will very soon release software that exports REDCINE XML from an Avid timeline. Ian Bloom has written software that does the same thing from FCP to REDCINE, and there will also be more formal support eventually. If Avid and FCP support conversion to REDCINE XML, why is that not sufficient for what you need to do?

Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA