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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Two informative reviews (possibly from the same shoot)

gunleik said:
http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=29375
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I understand this guy's impressions... He's comparing to HD cameras, but it's obvious he's not familiar with how to approach a RAW workflow. Whoever brought out the camera for their shoot failed to give them proper info it seems... To let them know that ASA setting in camera is for monitoring only and gets set as the default exposure point for import. But you choose your ASA in post. Same with white balance. There is no gain in-camera, there is no image processing in the camera. So gain, master ped, etc.. will all be post related when processing and part of the conversion to RGB or other target colorspace.

Multiple video outputs will be enabled with the next build.

I also have to question the owners of the camera... Both this and the other review complain of no sensor plane or back-focus indicator. WTF? Install the focus hook, people. If you're going to be pulling focus with a tape, you need the focus hook.

Not sure how they only measured 5 to 6 stops of lattitude. I'm thinking this comes back to unfamiliarity with the RAW workflow and how to process footage. In my so far limited use of the camera, I haven't achieved the mystical 11 stops either, but I can get 8 pretty easily, maybe 9.

http://www.surrealroad.com/research/archives/2008/the-red-experience-part-1-the-shoot/
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Definitely reads like it's from the same shoot... Install the damn focus hook.

These guys really needed a crash course in RAW data workflow. It seems they ran into some of the current firmware "glitches" like anyone else... It's obvious they received no support or pre-instruction on what to expect or how to deal with such issues from the camera supplier.
 
...and with all of said firmware glitches, newer users really do need a Red-savvy DIT or tech on set, for the time being.

The latitude conversation is interesting, and I guess it all depends on where you put the noise floor, which is of course subjective. Good to hear you're clocking 8-9 though Jeff, 5 or 6 would be a real disappointment! Can't wait to conduct our own tests, but just by eye on the images I've seen posted here it doesn't look like it's under 7 or 8...

And yes - wtf is with people not installing focus hooks?? It's hardly a luxury accessory at $45... There's just no excuse for that.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
I understand this guy's impressions... He's comparing to HD cameras, but it's obvious he's not familiar with how to approach a RAW workflow.
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Well, for me it just seems he's an assistant cameraman, and his concerns were absolutely genuine. I wouldn't want to AC on a shoot where the camera takes 1.5 minutes to boot. He was obviously not in charge of the workflow and didn't have to be. I also think his measure of 6 stops is way off. I can get 6 out of a DVX100. But it was an honest review of how stuff worked for him. He deserves great credit for sharing his experiences in such an upfront manner.

Cheers!
 
Well, for one thing the focus hooks were not available. I ordered one but it was back ordered. Apparently they have them now again.

I think a good and honest review and it shows where things can go wrong if you're not properly informed about workflow and beta builds. The latitude can be discussed forever I guess. The only thing from my limited tests is that it is good enough to cover sunlight and shadow. I am going to do some test shooting tomorrow and it reminds me to take a DLSR with to compare some things.
 
Yeah, don't get me wrong with my comments... I think they were good reviews and reflect the typical impressions people will have when jumping into working with RED if they're not familiar.

I think the biggest thing that these reviews show, is exactly what Dominic said. RED needs a good on-set DIT or technical advisor for the time being until all the kinks are worked out and people get up to speed on the best shooting practices and post workflow.

And yes, you have to buy the focus hook. Kinda silly if you ask me. Once you know where the sensor plane is at, it's not a big deal, but that that little $45 hook just saves a bunch of time and keeps things consistent.
 
Dominic Jones said:
wtf is with people not installing focus hooks?? It's hardly a luxury accessory at $45... There's just no excuse for that.
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sander kamp said:
Well, for one thing the focus hooks were not available.
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Apparently, there is an excuse for that - my bad! Certainly didn't mean to cause any offense, I realise it was slightly strongly worded, but in my defense I have seen lots of footage/pics of cameras without them (probably, in light of your comment because they couldn't get them either, I now realise).

Let's hope that's about to become a problem of the past...

FWIW, I thought they were good, honest reviews too - and especially useful in highlighting the issues that a non-Red savvy crew are likely to experience, which is a very important issue for those who intend to rent their cameras out, which I would imagine is most people here. Take note!

I've got a feeling, having thought about it, that the 6-stop figure may have come from hooking up a WFM to the Rec709 outputs - that would report a lower latitude than the chip is capable of, especially if they were pushing the preview image a bit...

Love to hear the results of your tests Sander - keep the info coming!
 
The RED without an experienced tech on a high budget/profile set is frustration and dissapointment waiting to happen. The cam is great on smaller sets without a tech... People are usually more hands-on and are willing to deal with difficulties. But when it's on anything commercial or union, there NEEDS to be an experienced tech in the camera department. Every shoot that has gone mildly south was due to an inexperienced tech or no tech at all.
 
Quoted from reviews:

1. ' ERROR: REKATIO FAULT' - has this been fixed, what happened here? Why suddenly did it decide there was too much data (unless the lighting changed or something)

2. the third is a big red record button which doesnt actually work - will this be adressed? Has anyone got it working yet?

3. the lcd can be blimped for sound, unlike the camera. no issue I dont think.

4. Black balance after every lens change??? Who else does this. I don't remember working with anyone who did this on any shoot. Black balance is an internal camera setting, the lens shouldn't have an affect on this. And I don't agree you need to turn the camera off when changing lenses either if the time thing is an issue. Thats a film-based procedure to avoid wasting stock accidentally isn't it?

5. GAIN - pfft, someone tell him about RAW data already.

6. 2k and 4k don't match - could someone verify this? I'm thinking more in terms of stuff for 1k broadcast, but for film out workflow also.

7. Power cut off to disk drive - would this easily corrupt all data on a harddrive?



Its clear that they are the same reviewer, both state the job was lit by a DP named Simon Dennis. I think I know who's camera that is and theyre a fairly reputable rental company, so I doubt their DIT knew nothing.. Altough to be fair, most DIT's are going to be camera assistants who know something about other cameras, but they wont know much about Red practices until they get a few jobs under their belts.

Can someone adress the issues above and clear them up for me? Answers on a postcard.
 
RED is the inexpensive, poor man's promised land. Now you are saying it cannot be operated without a host of specialists on hand! Where is the savings? Where is the simplicity of Pany / Sony?
 
I was able to use the camera productively within a few hours, without any crew of assistants (although I wasn't shooting live action.) There is no question that Red is different from a standard video camera in many ways. Anyone presuming that it does work like a standard video camera is probably going to encounter difficulties, in my opinion.
 
chuckt said:
RED is the inexpensive, poor man's promised land. Now you are saying it cannot be operated without a host of specialists on hand! Where is the savings? Where is the simplicity of Pany / Sony?
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As I specifically stated in my post, the cam is great on smaller sets without a tech. Those "inexpensive, poor-man's" sets are perfect for the RED. But I feel that when the RED is on a larger, higher-budget, higher-profile fast-paced set, there needs to be somebody there who knows everything and has as much experience as possible. These are two entirely different worlds. Trust me, any Sony [think F23] camera on a larger set would have a tech or two as well. It's not that it's difficult, it just requires somebody to be on top of it constantly... and somebody who knows exactly what to do if something goes wrong.
 
Johnny Johnson said:
Quoted from reviews:

1. ' ERROR: REKATIO FAULT' - has this been fixed, what happened here? Why suddenly did it decide there was too much data (unless the lighting changed or something)

2. the third is a big red record button which doesnt actually work - will this be adressed? Has anyone got it working yet?

6. 2k and 4k don't match - could someone verify this? I'm thinking more in terms of stuff for 1k broadcast, but for film out workflow also.
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1. ROCKETIO error is I think related to build 14, which is a beta build. I haven't seen that happen with build 13. I think it is not wise to let new users shoot on beta builds.

2. You can turn it off and on in the user menu. It does work for me.

6. I haven't done any film out test but from what I am seeing in good light 2k will easily hold up. In low light conditions you get more noise with 2k than with 4k.
 
Johnny Johnson said:
Quoted from reviews:


5. GAIN - pfft, someone tell him about RAW data already.
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Somebody was not correct when they responded about gain in post in RAW. GAIN setting on camera is useful if it is implemented before ADC as it has better noise characteristics than digital gain in RAW after ADC
 
Joofa said:
Somebody was not correct when they responded about gain in post in RAW. GAIN setting on camera is useful if it is implemented before ADC as it has better noise characteristics than digital gain in RAW after ADC
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Not with RED. Gain settings in-camera just sends metadata with the file to tell RedCine or RedAlert what gain setting to apply. It is useful to see what the effect is, but the camera will still record at iso 320.
 
sander kamp said:
Not with RED. Gain settings in-camera just sends metadata with the file to tell RedCine or RedAlert what gain setting to apply. It is useful to see what the effect is, but the camera will still record at iso 320.
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According to my understanding Red will apply gain after ADC in software (RedCine/RedAlert), and not before ADC. Noise characteristics are better with in-camera gain before ADC. And, I am not talking about a still frame. You won't be able to see much difference on a still frame, but on moving images, in-camera gain before ADC should result in better imagery than gain on RAW file.
 
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