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Thoughts on 8K Epic w vs. 5K Epic Gemini?

A

adam brennan

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Being somewhat of a newbie to Red cameras I didn't pay much attention or understand the S35 8K sensor and cropping that happens when shooting at lower resolutions. I find myself not shooting much at 8K right now. If I understand correctly if I shoot anything lower than 8K res let's say 5K, I am using less of the s35 sensor surface than let's say if I was using the Red Gemini shooting at 5K utilizing the full sensor surface and getting less noise and more clarity. So I kind of feel maybe the Epic w 8K was not the best choice for me to go with when I am not shooting everything in 8K. I also wanted something a little more future proof if such a thing, but even if 8K resolution were main stream right now, I feel the Epic w is still very limited in what it can do option wise since it will only record in 30fps or so. Thoughts?
 
You are thinking it wrong.

When shooting red you have a lot of options. Even if you want HD end result you shoot full sensor, if you feel files get heavy you simply apply more compression. So the number of k´s and the weight of the files are not really linked to each other.


Also you can record 4k downsampled prores files from the 8k sensor.


But still, gemini is a pretty sweet option. And I think I would actually rather have it then a Epic W.
 
We tested a Gemini against our monstro and will probably get one... really versatile tool, easy to use and it is great not to crop for slowmo.
(we passed on helium as we felt, although impressive, it a little too niche... but the Gemini seems like a much more generally useful tool)

Ps Also a great Anamorphic camera..
 
Björn Benckert said:
You are thinking it wrong.

When shooting red you have a lot of options. Even if you want HD end result you shoot full sensor, if you feel files get heavy you simply apply more compression. So the number of k´s and the weight of the files are not really linked to each other.


Also you can record 4k downsampled prores files from the 8k sensor.


But still, gemini is a pretty sweet option. And I think I would actually rather have it then a Epic W.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I was told by red or maybe I misunderstood them, but when I shoot at lower resolutions I am cropping the sensor or utilizing a small area of the sensor and that is why I maybe seeing noise in the footage. The noise would be worse the lower the resolution. So you're saying that is not correct?
 
Michael Lindsay said:
We tested a Gemini against our monstro and will probably get one... really versatile tool, easy to use and it is great not to crop for slowmo.
(we passed on helium as we felt it too niche but the Gemini seems like a much more generally useful tool)

Ps Also a great Anamorphic camera..
Click to expand...

I think I am going to go the Gemini route. I heard there might be an upgrade path for Epic owners to the Gemini.
 
adam brennan said:
I think I am going to go the Gemini route. I heard there might be an upgrade path for Epic owners to the Gemini.
Click to expand...

Yes I believe there is... and I wouldn't hesitate for a second if I had a epic W. You will get more latitude, more sensitivity (but only when you need it) and a much better for slowmo camera. For general work, without specialist high res needs, it is very impressive!
 
adam brennan said:
Thank you. I was told by red or maybe I misunderstood them, but when I shoot at lower resolutions I am cropping the sensor or utilizing a small area of the sensor and that is why I maybe seeing noise in the footage. The noise would be worse the lower the resolution. So you're saying that is not correct?
Click to expand...

They are the same pixels so there wouldn't be more noise. The confusion may come from the fact that if you shoot higher resolution, then scale down to a lower resolution you are also scaling down the relative size of the noise so it is less apparent. That is true whether you are starting with an 8k, 6k, 5k, etc. camera. The advantage starting at 8K you have more room to scale to any other given resolution.
 
im not sure if that theory is right. ive shot a lot of MX and even dragon at low resolution an it looks terrible and very noisy...

shooting full sensor and outputting prores isnt the same as cropping the sensor and outputting red. yes the the pixel density is the same, but when you crop a red your lenses go more telephoto because of the field of view has cropped in. so i belive the noise is larger in 1k ws or 2k cropped on a red vs shooting full frame and either in post or in camera getting a full frame output in an HD raster...

that being said maybe im misreading you and you only meant the camera is down rezing it in real time like DSMC2 does? honestly i havent used DSMC2 so much so im new to all this in camera prores stuff somewhat. i have two arris at home and mostly rely on them and break my back lately since i rent my reds out


I should clarify what i think is proper workflow is shooting reds at high resolution raw either with or without prores files. this preserves masters in quality. an epic w in 4k mode raw only has cropped a lot and isnt s35. 8k is nice and future proof but the 5k gemini is a better day to day for my needs as well. i want one but dont own it yet... i hope to get one though soon
 
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Not sure if you were referencing my post but I was primarily talking about shooting 8K raw and down rezzing in post rather than the in camera down rez to prores although it should work to some extent with the prores as well.

Also shooting cropped modes doesn't change your lens or the light hitting the pixel - it just means you are ignoring pixels outside the cropped area. Your lens doesn't get more telephoto - you are just not using the whole image you created with it.
 
After now using both the Helium & Gemini, I prefer the Gemini.

High ISO option, larger pixels, pleasing skin tones & no sensor cropping when shooting 96fps.

The final feature which made me pull the trigger on the Gemini was the sensor height - almost no FOV loss when shooting with anamorphic lenses compared to the Alexa Mini.

It's a great camera overall....
 
adam brennan said:
Thank you. I was told by red or maybe I misunderstood them, but when I shoot at lower resolutions I am cropping the sensor or utilizing a small area of the sensor and that is why I maybe seeing noise in the footage. The noise would be worse the lower the resolution. So you're saying that is not correct?
Click to expand...

The trick is that you should not shoot lower resolutions if you are not forced to do so to get the frame rates needed. Even if your delivery format is HD you should still strive to max out the camera resolution at the sensor level. Then you can choose to downscale that in camera using proxy recording or use compression to get your file sizes smaller in Mb´s but still being as big as possible in number of pixels.

The sensor is relative to the lens used it´s not right to say a bigger or smaller sensor is better than or worse. Same as you can not claim that more pixels are always better than less pixels, as the quality of the pixels also comes in account.

Helium has a more dense pixels array than gemini but at a pixel to pixel level it looks like gemini holds up better and also comes with dual iso.

So both cameras have their advantages, helium max out at 8k within the image circle of S35 which is the strength of that camera. Gemini got dual iso and managed to shoot a very noise free image at quite extreme iso. Gemini also have less density so it can record a larger sensor area at a higher frame rate without cropping. And for those that find 5k being enough that's a benefit.
 
I'm leaning toward Gemini, but would love some close up people R3Ds in regular & high ISO mode to play around with to compare with the R3Ds of the 8k samples on RED.com

Those 8k files grade so well, and look amazing. It'd be great to be able to do the same with Gemini.
 
A: If high frame rate, low noise or smaller files is very important = Gemini

B: If higher image quality, future proof and being able to crop is more important = Helium

We shot wildlife so the Helium was a great choice. We can crop and get extremely sharp images that are much more future proof.
/Andreas
 
AndreasOberg said:
A: If high frame rate, low noise or smaller files is very important = Gemini

B: If higher image quality, future proof and being able to crop is more important = Helium

We shot wildlife so the Helium was a great choice. We can crop and get extremely sharp images that are much more future proof.
/Andreas
Click to expand...

Hello,
But Wildlife photography often takes place early morning or late evening.So low light capabilities are important.
This choice is a hard one...
 
Marc Pilato said:
Hello,
But Wildlife photography often takes place early morning or late evening.So low light capabilities are important.
This choice is a hard one...
Click to expand...

Yes, low light is absolutely useful for wildlife. I talked to one of the cinematographers from Planet Earth 2 and he recommended Helium since that was their standard for the flexibility in post due to the resolution. They actually used non Red cameras if they wanted low light possibilities. Some other benefits you get with Helium is that you can crop more so you basically get a longer zoom "for free". The more you crop the more visible the noise will be of course, but you can do a lot with Neat Video to reduce noise.

The reality is that it is not an easy choice. If you do slow motion at dusk then I would prefer Gemini, for everything during the daytime I would prefer Helium. If you film in a forest and its dim I would prefer Gemini.
/Andreas
 
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Hurcan Yilmazer said:
Im thinking to upgrade my epic w to Helium 8k and my dragon to gemini. Do you think it is a good call?
Click to expand...

Best of both worlds, that's what I'd do unless you frequently shoot multicamera productions.
 
i have two bodies but want to keep them the same, since many times do multicam. It is a hard decision but think will stick with Helium for both. 60 fps at 8k is enough full frame is enough for me.
 
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