The Update Thread

[vincent kardasik]

The gravy train continues.... You guys are ridiculous!

Cool!

 

[Mark Parrott]

Yup, I know a number of Epic Dragon owners in NYC who are mystified - and confused.

It does seem a little odd to me the top shelf Epic Dragon I received last Summer is only worth $5K now if I trade it in for an Epic-W for $15K...and has no accessories, or anything...meaning I've lost all Magnesium Upgrade benefits (which I had a deposit for, and was ready to send in my brain in August, and was advised not to cuz my camera would probably sit at RED for 2 months to get upgraded, which wasn't production friendly at all).

Whereas anyone with a $1K deposit on Scarlet-W can get that same Epic-W, off the street, for $20K....only $5K more?

I understand the love for Scarlet-W depositors who've had to wait for a camera.

But this punishment of Epic Dragon owners (many who've invested $40-60K in RED) is certainly distressing.

And while I understand RED's frustration with Epic Dragon owners who didn't upgrade to DSMC2 yet, I urge them to see it from our POV:


LATE EPIC DRAGON UPGRADERS

Not everyone "jumped" at Weapon right away - I know we didn't because we got in the RED game late, and only got our Epic Dragon last summer. We've been upgrading EVERY YEAR (2014 to Epic MX, 2015 to Epic Dragon), and have been faithfully/quietly planning our DSMC2 "jump" for some time.

But this October 11th "deadline" caught us by surprise. My business partner has an Epic Dragon too, so we have TWO matching cameras to consider, and both have been stripped of their benefits (at least for the time being)...and are currently only worth $5K to RED to trade in.

However, the new revelation Epic-W can have both a Helium or a Dragon sensor does open a door though....


A POSSIBLE SOLUTION?

Why not honor previous Magnesium upgrade deposits, and agree to upgrade them to Epic-W with the Dragon sensors at some later date? Say 1Q or 2Q in 2017, when Dragon sensors are in greater supply again? Or perhaps just use the Dragon sensor in our current Epic Dragon?

I know I'm in no rush - the Epic Dragons are doing great for the time being.

I just don't want my brain I've invested $40K in since summer 2013, to become a $5K paperweight overnight.

(Again - most of us who received an Epic Dragon late last summer are still paying off THAT upgrade. Even though my team and I shoot every week, our cameras only have 300hrs on them - relatively brand new.)


WE ARE NOT NEW CUSTOMERS - WE ARE OLD, LOYAL ONES - WHO'VE INVESTED A LOT IN RED

And I need to reiterate - I love RED, and have always been grateful to them (my business has grown BECAUSE of RED). But I know I speak for a number of Epic Dragon owners in NYC who are confused and not sure what todo next...especially considering the massive amounts of $$$ we've invested in our cameras.

We are NOT new customers who've placed a $1K deposit.

We're loyal customers who've been here for years, and invested tremendously in a brand we know and love.

Anything that can be done to help maintain the value of our cameras and upgrade paths...I know would be immensely appreciated.

Respectfully,

Nick Morrison

its not an additional $5k for a Scarlet W person to move to an Epic W... The brain of a Scarlet W is only $9,999.... The I/O package was $15k.... If we move to Epic we lose the I/O package and only get the brain.. Then have to invest in all of the other accessories... so the investment is close to $25K when its all said and done... $10K more than where we started if you went with the scarlet W I/O ...

 

[Anton Shavlik]

If you think scarlet w gets the better deal you can order one now

I think getting more than half off a new camera and sensor for my epic dragon is a steal.

I I would have probably gotten better use from the MG but once I have better colors and higher ISOs I know I won't look back.

 

[Nick Morrison]

its not an additional $5k for a Scarlet W person to move to an Epic W... The brain of a Scarlet W is only $9,999.... The I/O package was $15k.... If we move to Epic we lose the I/O package and only get the brain.. Then have to invest in all of the other accessories... so the investment is close to $25K when its all said and done... $10K more than where we started if you went with the scarlet W I/O ...

Mark, fair enough.

Doesn't change fact our Epic Dragon's (that we TRADE IN!) only save us $5K off your costs.

You only spent $1K on a deposit, yes?

While many of us have spent $40-50K on full Epic Dragon packages, some of which we've only had for over a year.

Just hoping some of that value can carry over to DSMC2, something the Magnesium Upgrade path did so well.

 

[Andy White]

Mark, fair enough.

Doesn't change fact our Epic Dragon's (that we TRADE IN!) only save us $5K off your costs.

You only spent $1K on a deposit, yes?

While many of us have spent $40-50K on full Epic Dragon packages, some of which we've only had for over a year.

Just hoping some of that value can carry over to DSMC2, something the Magnesium Upgrade path did so well.

I've been flip flopping myself (a lot)... I'm an Epic owner (one of the ones back in stage 4 that needed up being caught out in the half price cut) - then I moved to Dragon when my time came (to keep on the path) and then paused when the DSMC2 change happened... I'm still on 1.8 SSD's too!

I can see why the 'loop hole' is great value (Scarlet W to Epic W), but even that's too much for me at the moment (being hammered as jobs are falling off due to Brexit)... I was hoping for something a bit different for Epic Dragon owners, along the lines of a $10-15K price for an Epic-W and to keep out current bodies. This could be a time limited deal - ie run for 5 days and then that's it... but it would make DSCM2 easier for some of us (who are lagging behind). However, I see RED's strategy and they're a business after all, so what they're doing makes sense.

I can't see my fantasy scenario happening - especially as the loophole has been kept open by Jarred (which is/was a class move).

Honestly, I think I'm out of the race and will keep on with the Epic Dragon/1.8's - just too many $$ (or £ in my case) to keep up

 

[Andy Roberts]

When generosity is handed out like candy and some get a few pieces and some a whole bag, there is NEVER a moment when the giver is being unfair. Jarred and Brent have both said it numerous times... nothing they are doing makes sense on a 1 + 1 = 2 level. None of this follows the logic of "if a = b and b = c, the a must = c". Sure, everyone wants the full bag of candy. But whatever camera you have is a fair deal whether you get any free candy.

Matthew 20:13-15 (the Parable of the 11th Hour Worker) :
“But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’"

 

[Nick Morrison]

When generosity is handed out like candy and some get a few pieces and some a whole bag, there is NEVER a moment when the giver is being unfair. Jarred and Brent have both said it numerous times... nothing they are doing makes sense on a 1 + 1 = 2 level. None of this follows the logic of "if a = b and b = c, the a must = c". Sure, everyone wants the full bag of candy. But whatever camera you have is a fair deal whether you get any free candy.

Matthew 20:13-15 (the Parable of the 11th Hour Worker) :
“But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’"

Andy, I am not discounting RED's generosity. In fact I'm celebrating it. I'm thrilled there will be so many new customers jumping into DSMC2.

However, having spoken to numerous heavily invested Epic Dragon owners in NYC, I know we all share the same fear, that we're being left behind, and that our past (large) investments are worth less to RED than the promise of new customers.

There's no need to bring religion into this my friend.

 

[DJ Meyer]

Andy, I am not discounting RED's generosity. In fact I'm celebrating it. I'm thrilled there will be so many new customers jumping into DSMC2.

However, having spoken to numerous heavily invested Epic Dragon owners in NYC, I know we all share the same fear, that we're being left behind, and that our past (large) investments are worth less to RED than the promise of new customers.

There's no need to bring religion into this my friend.

Honest question here, not trying to goad... But if you're worried about "being left behind", why did you wait so long to get an Epic Dragon and buy into the DSMC1 system so late in its life cycle?

 

[Nick Morrison]

Honest question here, not trying to goad... But if you're worried about "being left behind", why did you wait so long to get an Epic Dragon and buy into the DSMC1 system so late in its life cycle?

No worries, fair question.

Basically, Im late in the DMSC1 cycle cuz I started late - got a Scarlet MX in October 2013, purchased from an old biz partner.

Then Epic MX in 2014.

Then Epic Dragon in summer 2015.

I've been upgrading methodically/patiently every year

However I know many Epic Dragon owners in similar positions - there are MANY of us.

Bear in mind...I did have a Magnesium Deposit in this year, unfortunately it's just been cancelled (leaving us only with the $5K trade in). In fact the Magnesium program ended so abruptly my Bomb Rep doesn't appear to have been able to have warned me....

So...we'll see what RED does...they always come up with amazing solutions...I'm not too worried.

best

 

[Darius Lyles]

Amen

 

[Jarred Land]

Andy, I am not discounting RED's generosity. In fact I'm celebrating it. I'm thrilled there will be so many new customers jumping into DSMC2.

However, having spoken to numerous heavily invested Epic Dragon owners in NYC, I know we all share the same fear, that we're being left behind, and that our past (large) investments are worth less to RED than the promise of new customers.

There's no need to bring religion into this my friend.

Dragon owners had one hell of a deal going to Weapon MG. It worked out to $9500 for an upgrade and you got all the accessories you needed.

But yet you still complain.

It's not our fault if you did not take that offer.

You skipped that for whatever reason.

But yet you still complain.

And then I give you guys another chance... to go straight to Epic-W, which is giving you guys a bonus round to upgrade that you shouldn't of had. Thats unfair to everyone that did upgrade to Weapon last year.

So you can't blame us "for leaving Dragon owners behind" as that's not fair.

But yet you still complain.

All you dragon owners that are gathering together with your burning pitch forks saying we are being unfair.. You might as well start burning down our building because I can't be any more generous to you and the fact that you are bitching about being given another opportunity....... kinda pisses me off.

Well not kinda.. Super pisses me off.

I think we are going to modify this the other way..

New plan. Dragon owners need to upgrade to Weapon first, like you should need to, like all the other loyal guys that played by the rules did.

So no more direct Dragon to Epic-W or Weapon Helium. Which is a shame because you guys were going to get something a bit special in all this.. but o well.

So There you go Nick.. you get what you wanted.. for us to be fair.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

No worries, fair question.

Basically, Im late in the DMSC1 cycle cuz I started late - got a Scarlet MX in October 2013, purchased from an old biz partner.

Then Epic MX in 2014.

Then Epic Dragon in summer 2015.

I've been upgrading methodically every year (and had a Magnesium Deposit in, but it was cancelled by RED).

However I know many Epic Dragon owners in similar positions - there are MANY of us.

Im in same boat with you however i still find this as an amazing deal.Afaik you can still choose Weapon-CF way after 11 october and get extra 5000$ aks credit which makes your camera 15,500$ +5000$.

 

[Andy Roberts]

Nick, if I quoted Einstein, you wouldn't have said, "Don't bring physics into this." That verse is a timeless truth. When a business man makes a generous decision that benefits one vs. another, there will ALWAYS be those who feel they are getting ripped. If you read that parable, the vineyard owner paid those who started working in the last hour of the day the same exact wage as those who worked from sun up. The first-hour workers felt they were owed a little something since they did the work through the heat of the day. They were owed NOTHING other than what they agreed to. That was fair.

When users complain that Red isn't being fair, it spoils the party for all, especially for Red.

EDIT: I just saw Jarred's response. I tried to warn you.

 

[Ian D'Amelia]

New plan. Dragon owners need to upgrade to Weapon first, like you should need to, like all the other loyal guys that played by the rules did.

So no more direct Dragon to Epic-W or Weapon Helium. Which is a shame because you guys were going to get something a bit special in all this.. but o well.

So There you go Nick.. you get what you wanted.. for us to be fair.

Sigh... I guess I can stop scraping the 14500 together now :/

Can you explain what my path options are now at an EPIC DRAGON owner now Jared...

Thanks for your time!

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Jarred? That one applies all Dragon owners too ?

 

[Josh Becker]

Nick better be hitting up 1-800-flowers ASAFP

 

[Adam Welch]

Jarred is just frustrated that no matter what Red does people complain. These are amazing deals and they are not being forced upon anyone. And you still have a great camera regardless of taking the deal or not.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Ouch?! I bet this will blow over. Nick is a Red champion and is very active in the community

 

[Matthew Quinn]

MG upgrade to win?

 

[Andy Roberts]

Upgrading is a privilege, not a right or an entitlement.

Trust me, my motives for trying to help bring clarity to this issue aren't related to some sense of being right. I am a very small owner/operator. I have yet to break even on any of my equipment purchases. I'm really small potatoes who wants to use the best equipment I can. But it helps all of us, me especially, if Red stays on the generous path.