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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Update Thread

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Kemalettin Sert said:
Whats the flagship of Red camera line at the moment? Carbon Weapon or Weapon Helium
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I think it's basically the Carbon Weapon; it can take either an 8K Helium or an 8K VV Dragon, and capture 8K at 75fps. Since they're both 8K, I theorize that the biggest difference is the required lens coverage, in light of the fact that the Vista Vision sensor is rather larger than a super 35 frame.
 
Jarred Land said:
you can sleep in....
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I don't mind staying up all night and refreshing reduser or red.com, though any chance you could kindly give us a window in which the page will be made live for those of us upgrading or ordering new camera? Pretty please with whiskey on top :)
 
Rakesh Malik said:
I think it's basically the Carbon Weapon; it can take either an 8K Helium or an 8K VV Dragon, and capture 8K at 75fps. Since they're both 8K, I theorize that the biggest difference is the required lens coverage, in light of the fact that the Vista Vision sensor is rather larger than a super 35 frame.
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Yeah its fairly larger than Helium sensor.But Jarred said they had problems with the production of VV sensors.
 
Ryan Sauve said:
Yeah, that difference is hard to swallow as an Epic Dragon owner but makes a lot of business sense. Both need new bodies and sensors. I'm going to ride my Epic Dragon as long as I can and get a Raven if I need a b-cam. I feel it's got a lot of good years left... that is when it comes back from its latest RMA, heh heh.
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That's not a bad move.. Epic Dragons are still shooting the biggest TV shows and the Biggest Films being released today. You definitely have many, many more years left in it.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
Whats the flagship of Red camera line at the moment? Carbon Weapon or Weapon Helium
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I think we're at a stage where they run in tandem. It's more like different film stocks than anything. You wouldn't ask if 50D or 200T is better. Different tools for different jobs.

Although i I guess a more apt comparison is film size...
 
Now that we know some of the FPSxResolution of the Epic-W, could we learn whats the base ISO of Helium (have that been asked/answered already)? And what are the recommended ISO to use with each OLPF?
 
Who would have guessed? Tom Greenberg with the most inappropriate gift so far...

And, Collin, well played, giraffes are my wife's favorite animal....
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
So why skip the VV line and upgrade to Helium from Carbon Weapon? Red offered free upgrade for who already paid VV upgrade.
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IIRC it was said that they are having problems getting the VV sensor in high volume and couldn't fulfill the demand, so to those that had payed to update they are giving for free the 8k Helium to use it while they wait, and when the VV is ready they change it again.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
Yeah its fairly larger than Helium sensor.But Jarred said they had problems with the production of VV sensors.
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Given their size, that's hardly a surprise; you get fewer candidates per wafer, and the probability of one being bad because of a flaw in the wafer goes up as the chip's surface area increases, since the probably of a flaw in the wafer is more or less constant. That alone means that a bigass medium format sized sensor is going to be a nightmare to get yields up on.

Plus if you're Intel or NVidia or similar, you can design lots of redundancy into the chip. Incorporate lots of extra cache (Intel) or a bunch of extra compute engines (nVidia), and if a flaw kills a few cache blocks or compute units, re-route them. Where they are on the chip doesn't matter that much, as long as signal propagation delays don't hose up your intra-chip communications. On a sensor, if you have a flaw somewhere in the middle you lose a few photosites... and re-routing those doesn't work so well, since where they are affects what data they gather.
 
Fabricio Morato said:
Now that we know some of the FPSxResolution of the Epic-W, could we learn whats the base ISO of Helium (have that been asked/answered already)? And what are the recommended ISO to use with each OLPF?
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This isn't necessarily an answer to your question but it sounds like the LLOLPF is not needed for Helium. OLPF's are for style only with this new sensor.
 
Jose Quinones said:
The way I see it, you get a $10K discount on Epic-W if A, you've been waiting a long time, or B, you're trading in your camera.

Putting a deposit today and getting an Epic-W for $20K is somewhat a gaming of the system, because let's face it, you waited a week or two at best. Some of us have been waiting 10 months.

So in a way "It's not fair" that you have to trade in your camera, but you're still getting a $10K discount for a camera that wasn't promised an upgrade path to DSMC2. The only real unfairness I see, is people getting a discount for waiting a handful of days, and this is just unfair to Red, not us. I'm happy I'm getting what I'm getting.
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I am pretty sure Jarred acknowledged the "unusual opportunity" this presented but also noted that putting in a Scarlet-W order now puts you at the end of the line for either taking delivery on the Scarlet-W or moving to Epic-W once that opportunity is available on 10/11.

Look at it this way. Any Scarlet-W owner can jump to Epic-W for the upgrade price - if you have the camera in your possession, you have to send it back. But since you are no longer waiting, you are on the back of the queue (and you keep your Scarlet-W until your number comes up.) If you don't yet have the camera, you get to keep your time stamp for the Scarlet-W, which is your "reward" for waiting since it should put you pretty close to the front of the line for Epic-W.

In my scenario, as a Scarlet Dragon owner before NAB 2015, I was granted the privilege of being able to buy a Scarlet-W special package and did NOT have to turn in my Scarlet Dragon to take advantage of it. My discount was "only" $2500 on the whole package. So, it makes perfect sense that I can order my Scarlet-W package - just like anyone else can order a Scarlet-W - and, if I choose, I can switch that Scarlet-W package to Epic-W, again just like anyone else. As far as the upgrade pricing, it really isn't relevant whether I ordered my Scarlet-W 6 months ago or yesterday if I am still waiting for the camera. When I originally ordered will effect where I am in line. So, an order yesterday -even with a quick decision on conversion - is still likely to put me pretty far back in line.

What I lose is the advantage of my package pricing and I also go to the back of the Epic-W queue. In essence, I am trading in the Scarlet-W that I haven't yet received for a future delivery on an Epic-W and I have to pay for both the Scarlet-W (full price of $9950) plus the $10K upgrade charge. Why should I have to also throw in my Scarlet Dragon?
 
Owen Rennie said:
I'd be smarter trading in my scarlet MX for $19500 than my Epic Dragon for $14500 correct? Epic Dragons are worth $5k more than a scarlet MX still?
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Hey Owen if you're looking to save a few bucks, it's probably best to put down a deposit for Scarlet-W so you'd spend $20K to own an Epic-W and you get to keep both your cameras...
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I am pretty sure Jarred acknowledged the "unusual opportunity" this presented but also noted that putting in a Scarlet-W order now puts you at the end of the line for either taking delivery on the Scarlet-W or moving to Epic-W once that opportunity is available on 10/11.

Look at it this way. Any Scarlet-W owner can jump to Epic-W for the upgrade price - if you have the camera in your possession, you have to send it back. But since you are no longer waiting, you are on the back of the queue (and you keep your Scarlet-W until your number comes up.) If you don't yet have the camera, you get to keep your time stamp for the Scarlet-W, which is your "reward" for waiting since it should put you pretty close to the front of the line for Epic-W.

In my scenario, as a Scarlet Dragon owner before NAB 2015, I was granted the privilege of being able to buy a Scarlet-W special package and did NOT have to turn in my Scarlet Dragon to take advantage of it. My discount was "only" $2500 on the whole package. So, it makes perfect sense that I can order my Scarlet-W package - just like anyone else can order a Scarlet-W - and, if I choose, I can switch that Scarlet-W package to Epic-W, again just like anyone else. As far as the upgrade pricing, it really isn't relevant whether I ordered my Scarlet-W 6 months ago or yesterday if I am still waiting for the camera. When I originally ordered will effect where I am in line. So, an order yesterday -even with a quick decision on conversion - is still likely to put me pretty far back in line.

What I lose is the advantage of my package pricing and I also go to the back of the Epic-W queue. In essence, I am trading in the Scarlet-W that I haven't yet received for a future delivery on an Epic-W and I have to pay for both the Scarlet-W (full price of $9950) plus the $10K upgrade charge. Why should I have to also throw in my Scarlet Dragon?
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A few (well a lot) of pages back :

Jarred Land said:
You guys are trying to make sense of this again :)

if you are not a waiting scarlet-w owner then you need to stop comparing what they are getting vs everything else. They are getting something special because they have been suffering while all you with cameras are out shooting.

Just from a dollar perspective If epic-w interests you it's cheaper to buy Scarlet W and then switch to Epic-W rather than just buying a new Epic-W. That's going against the spirit of the deal but we aren't going to stop you.

Normally we would just wait till announcement day and say " if you have a Scarlet W on order from yesterday or before you can upgrade " to avoid that price discrepancy but in this case I feel like giving you guys a heads up on what's going on so you can be prepared is a better advantage to you than trying to artificially block the "cheaters" from taking advantage of us.
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Mikael Lubtchansky said:
A few (well a lot) of pages back :
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So I think this confirms what I said. LOL

I don't like "going against the spirit of the deal" but Jarred does seem pretty cool with it so I am feeling OK.

"Just from a dollar perspective If epic-w interests you it's cheaper to buy Scarlet W and then switch to Epic-W rather than just buying a new Epic-W. That's going against the spirit of the deal but we aren't going to stop you."

 
Brent@RED said:
Who would have guessed? Tom Greenberg with the most inappropriate gift so far...

And, Collin, well played, giraffes are my wife's favorite animal....
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LOL... didn't look at URL. Hope my "blocked webpage" at work doesn't trigger any alarms. XD
 
Andrew R Lewis said:
This isn't necessarily an answer to your question but it sounds like the LLOLPF is not needed for Helium. OLPF's are for style only with this new sensor.
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That's nice. So this means that you would use Standard for almost everything and SkinTone to get a better highlight protection? Or SkinTone wouldn't affect how the DR is distributed?



On another note, back about the VV yield, I just stumbled across this image: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...yield_model_(10-20-40mm)_-_Version_2_-_EN.png
I would imagine that this is a simplified view, but it shows how hard it is to go with bigger sensor and have a good batch from it. And probably after this there are a lot of additional tests that exclude even more sensors.
 
Tommaso Alvisi said:
Hey Owen if you're looking to save a few bucks, it's probably best to put down a deposit for Scarlet-W so you'd spend $20K to own an Epic-W and you get to keep both your cameras...
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Yes - If I were you I would trade up the MX and keep the Dragon. I think the Epic Dragon and the Epic-W will lay well together.
 
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