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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Update Thread

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What Jared and Red Team has always been telling us is the same thing. They're estimates! not exact dates. and they're fairly vague.
I think we've been spoiled because we have so much insight. Think about it. It's amazing that we are even told that there are delays. Nobody else shares that kind of information. I'm gladly waiting for my body and maybe even make enough money by then to upgrade.
It's similar to purchasing a ferrari. Maybe it's not the right camera for some if you can't wait.

There are some people i used to constantly see on here waiting too but they aren't here any more. Which means they are out there with their new cameras shooting.
 
Chris McKechnie said:
Once again, transparency at it's finest. Thanks Jarred!
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I think it's great that one of the owners of the company talks directly to customers and tries to explain things.

Talking about transparency at it's finest, it would be good to know for people that have cameras on order what percentages of orders have been fulfilled? I'm guessing that to unveil how many cameras have been ordered will be to much to ask, but like everything some rough estimate could be done...something like: we delivered 20% of our current Raven orders and 15% precent of our Scarlet-W, OR "our average delivery rate of cameras per a month have been xxx per Raven and xxx for Scarlet-W or last month we only had 100 sensors made for camera X or Y etc.

Basically I guess there are ways to have more transparency/info, not sure if it's possible, and will except if it's not, just saying.

Me and a few friends with cameras on orders, my friends have no RED background and are not on the forum, so they are just going mad lol
 
Jarred Land said:
BSI has some great advantages but at a massive expense of dynamic range since there is so much light spill between pixels with BSI... which is something I feel is not worth the tradeoff just quite yet.
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I thought they had close to 100% fillfactor BSI? I could appreciate native DR being affected by BSI design without a HDR circuit (native DR being prime) but how does reduced fillfactor affect HDR?

Thanks.
 
Again a great explanation from Jarred that doesn't necessarily make it any easier for those waiting but is so so much more than you'd get from any other company.

I've it before but I'll say it again. Buying a Red is not like walking into the Apple Store and expecting to walk out with your new laptop minutes later. It's more like joining fight club. And if you're not a Robert Paulsen, then no-one will think less of you for taking your deposit and picking up an Ursa or an FS7 instead. But if you're joining the cause, be prepared to be punched in the face a few times - it's for your own good.
 
So one hand you say you can't tell us anything because you don't know how the sensors will turn out that week, but then you say things like October will have "monster more" cameras shipping. I know Helium will start too that month. But how do you know the sensors will be problem free in October, even for Helium. You say "our sensors ride so far to the edge of technology that there is no constant dependable number we can make every day.. sometimes we lose a whole batch, sometimes we have an almost perfect batch." Are you saying the Dragon sensors are bitch to make and most of them are lost but you can count on Helium to have 100% yield? And if not, how are you so sure October will be "Monster" month. I do want to believe.
 
I think the gist of what jarred was saying was they knew the Raven would be popular, but had no idea HOW popular. They got totally swamped as he has said a few times before. I was totally lucky enough to get my SW in February (totally blessed) so I guess I got lucky, and ordered really early.
About october.. The one reason why I think so many cameRAS WILL go out by then is the new announcements. You have to think they want to ship as many Ravens/scarlet-w/VV weapons BEFORE they announce the details on helium
 
but if the sensors ain't here, there is not much to ship, announcement or no announcement. Unless they are there and they are holding them off, but that would deviate from what Jarred said they go hand to mouth.
 
Obviously part of the hold up has been the number of orders placed. The optimistic side of me is believing they have made. Serious dent in the flood of orders from the first few months. And now more of you who have been waiting since December-April will start to get cameras..
what we don't know is how many mountains have been crossed at this point. Like was there a major peak in orders covered? Or are we still on the way to the summit of the major bulk of orders
 
David Ruzicka said:
So one hand you say you can't tell us anything because you don't know how the sensors will turn out that week, but then you say things like October will have "monster more" cameras shipping. I know Helium will start too that month. But how do you know the sensors will be problem free in October, even for Helium. You say "our sensors ride so far to the edge of technology that there is no constant dependable number we can make every day.. sometimes we lose a whole batch, sometimes we have an almost perfect batch." Are you saying the Dragon sensors are bitch to make and most of them are lost but you can count on Helium to have 100% yield? And if not, how are you so sure October will be "Monster" month. I do want to believe.
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Oh come on people read what Jarrad said. He didn't say or even suggest that sensors will be problem free in October. What he said, if you read the full in for was ...

Jarred Land said:
Cameras are shipping, orders are being fulfilled... like I said, more this month than last and should be more next month and then monster more the next... it's just taking time to ramp up and catch up. We are expanding everything... but it takes time for everything to come together.
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The last part is key... Production is being ramped up and expanded.

Patience is a virtue, and no amount of question asking, twisting of facts or trying to read more into what's happening will get there any quicker. Jarrad has been very open about the whole situation, and if anyone didn't believe that try and find out what the delivery of a competitors camera is going to be, or for example, what will replace an F65?? Advance knowledge is great but it comes with a requirement to understand what we're told, listen carefully and wait!
 
Jarred Land said:
I like to think we make the best cameras... especially Raven and Scarlet-W in that price point.
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There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about that. Blows the rest of the market away.

Jarred Land said:
...at the horrible expense of a long wait.. and I know it's a brutal wait.
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Thanks for acknowledging the difficulty some of us are facing. It means a lot that the man in charge would come down here and talk about it. Honesty and transparency goes a long way in my book.
 
Jarred Land said:
Unless you are about to be allocated ( i.e a week or so away ) , if a Rep tells you a specific date down the road that you are getting your camera then he or she is just making it up. I know that's pretty blunt... but it's the truth.

I know you guys don't fully understand and I've explained it many times but we just cannot make cameras fast enough to extinguish the backorder. Its just how it is.. and I can't change that. Right now we are hand to mouth with sensors... completely wiped out every day that the new ones come in.

Our sensors are arguably the best out there... the reason nobody else does what we do is because its fucking difficult. Our sensors ride so far to the edge of technology that there is no constant dependable number we can make every day.. sometimes we lose a whole batch, sometimes we have an almost perfect batch. It's just how it is.

When we are caught up with manufacturing and are ahead of cameras with more in stock than we sell, those sensor fluctuations sort of ease out because we have a few batches in reserve to absorb those fluctuations. . Scarlet-W and Raven however completely caught us off guard by the demand, wiped out everything and hence why we are rolling day to day with no reserve. Put that variability in of the sensors together with the additional random schedule of Dragon Owners sending in cameras for upgrades that have a pre-allocation, and you can start to understand why giving you guys a firm date is just impossible.



Let me kinda simplify this. Don't pay attention to the actual numbers because they are all imaginary.

Say you are order #180. and its Monday morning and we are building camera #100. Since we cant ship your camera till it gets a sensor , we need to wait till 10am to see how many perfect sensors we get out of the oven.
Nobody knows that answer ahead of time.. you can only guess. So if you ask the question before 10am.. any answer anyone gives you is made up.. even if you are close.


So 10am comes and we get in 100 perfect sensors out of a possible 200. Great. Better than zero... not as good as 200.
So we start putting those 100 sensors into cameras. You get your call because you have a sensor and have been allocated.


Fast forward a week. another batch of cameras ready for sensors. Monday 10am comes , and we get only 30 good sensors this time. O fuck.
So we put those into 30 cameras and call those 30 people and we gotta wait another week. Again... we are hand to mouth so this really is all happening in real time.


So 3rd week comes. We get 180 perfect sensors!!! woo hoo. awesome. Or maybe we get a zero yield ( which happens ). O fuck.


That's kinda how we are living... and I hope you can see if you ask the question " what week will my camera ship " its an impossible answer.


I like to think we make the best cameras... especially Raven and Scarlet-W in that price point. You are getting a lot.. at the horrible expense of a long wait.. and I know it's a brutal wait.

We don't mass produce things... these are all hand made and not just things we can bolt together in the dark and stamp parts out with cookie cutters.

I know its longer than you guys wanted and longer than many of you were told.

I am not hiding anything from you... Its not like your reps all know the days your cameras are going to ship and are just playing some sadistic game not telling you... the answer is just impossible to calculate.

Cameras are shipping, orders are being fulfilled... like I said, more this month than last and should be more next month and then monster more the next... it's just taking time to ramp up and catch up. We are expanding everything... but it takes time for everything to come together.

And yes.. we are not the only camera company. You have lots of options out there . We are happy to refund your deposit in full and give your spot to someone else in line so you can go buy something else if you just cannot wait any longer.. It's totally understandable.

Sorry if i am starting to sound like a broken record... but as long as people keep asking why, I feel obligated to keep explaining.
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Wow, that's one big explanation, BUT the best one I've read so far. I didn't know the production was kind of random in this way.
I hope what you're saying about the monster months is true and March-orders will be still for this year...

Out of curiosity, and maybe even a very mean question: you say you like to think you make the best cameras/sensors. How do you set yourself against Arri? Which is said to make the best sensors... Of course they also cost at least double what RED asks...
I haven't seen really professional grades with the new Scarlet W's, but you're making me very curious with this kind of statements (in a good way).
 
I was pretty surprised to get a Scarlet-W this week (Raven preorder Nov. 30). I had kinda assumed it would be a couple more months based on the frank discussions around here. Can't wait to put it to use this week! Thank you Jarred & Red! Cameras are definitely moving.
 
Jasper Van Gheluwe said:
Wow, that's one big explanation, BUT the best one I've read so far. I didn't know the production was kind of random in this way.
I hope what you're saying about the monster months is true and March-orders will be still for this year...

Out of curiosity, and maybe even a very mean question: you say you like to think you make the best cameras/sensors. How do you set yourself against Arri? Which is said to make the best sensors... Of course they also cost at least double what RED asks...
I haven't seen really professional grades with the new Scarlet W's, but you're making me very curious with this kind of statements (in a good way).
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Best Camera is always very relative, depending on what one needs and wants. But REDs are definitely on the top of all-round cameras, as there isn't really anything you can throw at it that it can't handle.
 
Visar Sulejmani said:
Best Camera is always very relative, depending on what one needs and wants. But REDs are definitely on the top of all-round cameras, as there isn't really anything you can throw at it that it can't handle.
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Of course you're right on that one. But what I see and read a lot is Arri makes the best sensors regarding skintones and softness.
But what I want to see some time is the same color grader with the footage. Especially now with red's new sensors. For example take the movie The Revenant, or less budget : the Witch. Those are for me typical Arri colors, would this also be reachable with the new Red sensors... (And yes, I know, if I want Arri, I should get Arri... But I hope you understand my question)
 
most talented colorists can pull a very "arri" look from redcode. I'm sure they must hear it a lot.. for me, I think the image coming from red is more appealing straight from camera than arri, just my opinion
 
Red can be graded to look like arri, very possible
 
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Jarred,

Thank you for sanity check and candid information. First off, still giddy that RED has a line of customers outside the door and around the corner.

From a layman's POV - piecemealing the comments about the current sensor yield, is it accurate to assume it's a weekly yield vs daily? AND with the October announcement, is it fair to expect a similar yield situation with the new sensor?
 
Jarred,
Thank you for the look behind the curtain.
Nice explination, but being a bit of an engineer type,,
im now totally curious about sensors :-)

Curtis
 
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