The Update Thread

[Jarred Land]

Out of curiosity, and maybe even a very mean question: you say you like to think you make the best cameras/sensors. How do you set yourself against Arri? Which is said to make the best sensors... Of course they also cost at least double what RED asks...
I haven't seen really professional grades with the new Scarlet W's, but you're making me very curious with this kind of statements (in a good way).

People used to say Arri has better color science, but definitely not better sensors... Our pixel and sensor design quite frankly blow theirs out of the water. You can get about the same same dynamic range from either cameras but we do it in a pixel a fraction of the size. That's pretty incredible.

Now Color science is a whole different thing... and yeah Arri kinda kicked our ass at the beginning. But we caught up.. and Graeme has been working on the new color science for a couple years now and that should be ready for release in October that is pretty phenomenal.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Now Color science is a whole different thing... and yeah Arri kinda kicked our ass at the beginning. But we caught up.. and Graeme has been working on the new color science for a couple years now and that should be ready for release in October that is pretty phenomenal.

This last part is HUGE!!!!!

Can't wait!!!

WOW - October feels like...it's going to be BIG.

 

[Samir Patel]

well.... Damn!

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

and Graeme has been working on the new color science for a couple years now and that should be ready for release in October that is pretty phenomenal.

Now that little tidbit will keep me awake at nights - even more than the other news.

And Thx Jarred for the target date on the new screen.

October promises to be a month to look forward to.

 

[Brendan H. Banks]

Now Color science is a whole different thing... and yeah Arri kinda kicked our ass at the beginning. But we caught up.. and Graeme has been working on the new color science for a couple years now and that should be ready for release in October that is pretty phenomenal.

Say WHAAAAAT?! Very exciting. Just guessing from the context that this will apply forwards and backwards to supported sensors. Hoping both Dragon and Helium sensors will benefit from this new color science. Care to confirm or deny, Jarred?

 

[Matthew Quinn]

@@ more love

 

[Kazu Okuda]

helium color space probably. and maybe a new dragon profile....

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I'm curiouse. BM claims similar latitude to Dragon, but looking at side by side examples I picked a difference. I know people measure latitude differently. So what is the standard Red uses and the one BM is using? I would guess the BM has 1+ stops less, and some sort of lifting difference. But it is hard to say without more propper examples

 

[Jeff McCoy]

Graeme has been working on the new color science for a couple years now and that should be ready for release in October that is pretty phenomenal.

Helium Color?
Any chance the storm trooper squad can play with a beta?

 

[Derek Carlson]

Thanks for the updates Jarred. First off, I had no idea there was such unpredictability to the science of creating sensors. I thought it was like any assembly line where you might have a few outliers that don't meet QC but a majority do. Thanks for all the updates. Super stoked about the new Color science. I think we'll see a huge flip in the industry away from the dominance of Arri in the next year or two.

 

[Jasper Van Gheluwe]

People used to say Arri has better color science, but definitely not better sensors... Our pixel and sensor design quite frankly blow theirs out of the water. You can get about the same same dynamic range from either cameras but we do it in a pixel a fraction of the size. That's pretty incredible.

Now Color science is a whole different thing... and yeah Arri kinda kicked our ass at the beginning. But we caught up.. and Graeme has been working on the new color science for a couple years now and that should be ready for release in October that is pretty phenomenal.

Sounds very interesting! Thanks for the insight, looks very promising!

Guess I'll have to look for some professional color grading workshop/teachers in the Netherlands

 

[Lasse Mørkhagen]

I knew I was in for a long wait when I ordered my camera. And with all the updates coming in October I kind of hope my camere does not get delivered any time soon, just in case I want to switch ;-)

Now Color science is a whole different thing... and yeah Arri kinda kicked our ass at the beginning. But we caught up.. and Graeme has been working on the new color science for a couple years now and that should be ready for release in October that is pretty phenomenal.

 

[Phil Holland]

People used to say Arri has better color science, but definitely not better sensors... Our pixel and sensor design quite frankly blow theirs out of the water. You can get about the same same dynamic range from either cameras but we do it in a pixel a fraction of the size. That's pretty incredible.

Now Color science is a whole different thing... and yeah Arri kinda kicked our ass at the beginning. But we caught up.. and Graeme has been working on the new color science for a couple years now and that should be ready for release in October that is pretty phenomenal.

For the curious here's how this played out for me and somewhat concisely with the general opinion of the industry.

RED One w/ the original M Sensor: The first shot out of the barrel from RED. The industry took note as this was the first 4K digital cinema camera for the mass professional market that was priced aggressively against the normal 1080p competitors. However, most importantly it was the first system to provide a resolution relevant digital film alternative with somewhat comparable dynamic range and color. What we call the Base ISO was typically around ISO 320-500 depending on who you'd talk to and the lighting conditions/temperature you'd film with it. There were a couple of 4K options prior to this, but they didn't take the public or professional field's true attention for a variety of reasons. RED indeed changed the world at this moment and pushed the accelerator for nearly every other company who was even thinking 4K back then, most of which were targeting 2015/2016 for their first 4K camera releases.

RED One w/ the upgraded Mysterium-X Sensor: New sensor, 4.5K, and better "everything". Base ISO increased to 800, though many worked with it as low as 320 commonly. While very much improved Mysterium-X did/does have some downsides as it's rather sensitive to IR contamination. Also, it tends to provide the biggest and longest lasting myth with some soundly based fact regarding the typical "RED Look". Color Science advancements later pushed this a way a bit, but the native character of the Mysterium-X sensor does in fact have a fingerprint in many ways.

RED Epic w/ Mysterium-X Sensor and the birth of DSMC: This was the camera that truly made me turn my head. Mysterium-X 5K sensor. Again Base ISO still at 800, but this was the first modular digital cinema camera (which is a concept that the rest of the industry has been rather inspired by) and it can shoot at 5K resolution. This is where the true seesaw back and forth began with "Arri VS RED". More resolution was/is a good thing. The color wars began as did the wiggling and noodling at dynamic range.

RED Scarlet-X w/ the Mysterium-X Sensor: On a very important day in 2011 RED put their foot down regarding what entry level digital cinema camera could be. The same day a competing company reveal their new cinema line-up featuring initially a 1080p camera, RED dropped the bomb on about 300 of us at RED Studios Hollywood and released a 4K camera that changed the game in terms of price point and feature set. 4K motion was available and below the cost of a bare RED One body. When compared to say an Alexa at the time, the value found in the Scarlet-X with the MX sensor was impossible to ignore. The world almost didn't make sense. Color however was still needing improvement in a big way.

Enter the Dragon Sensor: This to me was perhaps the most important moment that for some quickly changed the paradigm of what we considered good color out of a RED camera. For others, it was a rather slow paradigm shift as they still had "old RED lore opinions" from my Mysterium-X sensor and perhaps even the RED One camera bodies. The RED Dragon Sensor brought/brings so much to the table in terms of Total Captured Dynamic Range, Resolution, and Color performance. This was the first sensor to have vastly superior IR performance by cutting and blocking those wavelengths. Dynamic Range improved to 16+ stops. And with the Epic Dragon camera model, max capture resolution went up to 6K. However, the most important aspect when it comes to resolution was having 5K in approximately the same size Super 35mm image plane. This became for me and many the first sensor to not just be a viable digital film alternative, but rather a digital film replacement. When comparing formats to formats: Dragon outresolves film, is more consistent color, is cleaner, and has more Total Captured Dynamic Range. This changed the game for me entirely. Base ISO is widely considered 800 ISO. However, with various OLPFs you can argue that it's somewhere in the 800-1280 range. I should also mention, Color Science advanced a great deal with this new technology. In fact, at the time, and perhaps still to now it's the best color out of a digital cinema camera (that's my opinion though, so take that with a fist of salt).

Dragon-lings: Scarlet Dragon was the next natural progression and provided so much of what was found in Epic Dragon, except with a 5K motion focus. This if you read above is important as again this holds big relevance if you have a film background. The Scarlet Dragon became the pound for pound most bang for the buck in many ways as it outshines cameras 2-5 times it's cost at the time of it's release date. Revolutionary on the price point again.

The Robots have grown up, the Evolution to DSMC2: While the name was controversial and sparked some rather off track discussion, the Weapon body is a big upgrade from the hardware path set forward in 2009. Computer technology advanced a whole bunch and some of those advancements made their way into this new generation of DSMC2 cameras. Modern electronics and some design improvements meant smaller and lighter weight camera bodies as well as gaining some additional performance out of the current sensor technology at the time, Dragon. Built in Wifi, new ventilation design and fan/exhaust placement, and host of other features. The modular camera concept was taken a step further even still by focusing on the core brain and building off of that. Cableless LCDs and EVFs saved rigging time and the camera has become quicker to deploy. Better internal Data Rates also have allowed for dual REDCODE RAW + Intermediate Codec Recording, which has been huge for many. Not to mention if you need to shoot straight to an Intermediate Codec, you can.

DSMC2 as a family: Much like before with Scarlet-X MX and Scarlet Dragon, RED innovated and jumped into a pricing tier in the entry level market that they themselves haven't seen before with RED Raven. 4.5, Dragon sensor, shootable under $10K. Crazy times. For those who wanted a bit more Scarlet-W, who's existence once again produces perhaps the most performance to value ratio when compared to competing systems. 5K, Dragon. There's now a fuller picture of the DSMC2 family of cameras and RED released a whole bunch of them to make available to nearly every type of shooter and budget ratio. This also would be a good time to mention RED has opened up the camera platform to 3rd party developers to help shooters truly craft the type of camera they want to work with. Another first really.

8K has Landed: 8K has been a discussion topic for a while at this point and then wham, boom, bang. There's a large format Weapon Dragon coming down the pipe in the form of 8K VV. This is the first 8K large format digital cinema camera to hit the market and for those hungry for larger formats to explore RED came through in a big way, though the sensors themselves are formed from unobtainium. In the same calendar year RED Weapon Helium 8K S35 was announced and released. This satisfies the market in a huge way as many have significant and real investments and preferences in Super 35mm lenses. Now they can have 8K performance and coverage in most cases. RED not only released one, but two 8K sensors ahead of the competition by a very healthy amount of time. And I should mention that at this very moment due to REDCODE RAW I'm able to work from a helicopter and hotel room in a different country shooting 8K and pushing out first light grades and dailies from a laptop. 8K working on a laptop. 8K has a lot of advantages that exceed just shooting and finishing at 8K. For instance 8K to 4K makes a lot of sensor. We all know what benefits oversampling has at this point, though I'm joyfully having yet another 1080p based internet discussion as I'm cranking away at 16 times that resolution. On a personal note, I fully respect having multiple formats being offered. It does put buyers and shooters in a tough decision making position, but having the option is the best part about reaching that eventual conclusion for those going to 8K.

 

[Phil Holland]

Where things are now?! At the moment we all know Epic-W is coming. RED has developed two of the best and leading sensor technologies in Dragon and Helium. There's also been various one off cameras like the Xenomorph, Bayhem, and recently Ranger bodies as well as the Panavision Millennium DXL line-up. These cameras represent special relationships to include technologies from many different sources to form a monster of motion picture camera. This leads to many questions. We also know there's some new color workflow coming. The industry has clearly taken notice. It's not 2009 anymore. It's 2016 and the cameras are very, very good now. Small, powerful, high resolution little beasts. Where things go from here are a bigger question mark. I have questions regarding 4K broadcast, 8K broadcast, and various other accessories that may or may not be in development. Also, I'm eyeballing things like the Ranger that perhaps shows what may lead up into a RED branded module or expander perhaps? OMOD is there for that flexibility as well.

Personally the most exciting moments for me over these years. RED One's release. Epic Announcement. Scarlet-X Announcment/Release (gateway drug man). DRAGON. DSMC2. 8K anyway you want it. Also the continued growth of REDuser as a community and very useful tool when it comes to education regarding how to get the best images possible out of these cameras, which has also grown into one of the better cinematography communities as well. Occasionally the compass dips south, but it seems to always find true north and keeps things on point.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

IR filter. The color science, my about $100 pocket camera had a good balance. Many cheap pocket hybrids came with a reasonable color. This still mystify's me. The "Red Look" simply was like early 70's negative film. A mistaken notion from pre Red days when people in our diy digital cinema camera development groups raved because micron sensors were achieving any look like cinema film. Early adopters simply didn't push the film around much on their test samples when I came in, around MX days, so people stuck with it (probably thinking the colorful look was not film like). I'd 100% prefer the colorful industry looks of the day. It sort of just got stuck somehow in the mind of the low end of the industry as the film look. I can get plenty of this if I rent out Dirty Harry movies.

Today, I'm happy, the dragon look, as a little bit to one side as it is, is straight usable, and a good starting point. Helium (where are those ungraded frames) just lovely, smooth, silky. Anyway, getting myself a real low priced low light camera in next few weeks, but unfortunately not one of those cheap 14 bit 20+ stop deals. But I was reasonably happy with my early 2000's and 2006, 16 stop+ cheap cameras. So, a way to go. Look forwards to the oxygen or hydrogen sensor Now pass that helium camera phone sauce please, 16+ stops is fine.

 

[Roger Valdes]

Just curious. Why doesn't Red use Dual gain sensor readout like ARRi does to increase DR?

 

[Visar Sulejmani]

Just curious. Why doesn't Red use Dual gain sensor readout like ARRi does to increase DR?

Isn't that basically what HDRx does?

 

[Carson Nyquist]

Any chance we could upgrade a Scarlet-W pre-order to Helium once they go on sale?

 

[Levi Arnold]

Any chance we could upgrade a Scarlet-W pre-order to Helium once they go on sale?

There is a path or price advantage for the Helium if you have a DSMC2 body, Or Epic body.

 

[Luca Volpe]

Any chance we could upgrade a Scarlet-W pre-order to Helium once they go on sale?

From what I heard it will be possible...but I suppose once we send the SW back they will give us a new body too as it should be written HELIUM on the side instead of Dragon...and also this new technology I am wondering if will fit in that body...