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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Update Thread

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Josh Becker said:
When did you switch? Because there are a ton of people with later Raven timestamps than you who have gotten Scarlet-Ws.
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First week of May.
 
Scot Yount said:
Luckily I will be able to switch to Epic-W. I hope!!!
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I'm sure a ton of people will switch and the marketplace will be flooded with Scarlet-W's if the Epic-W is available anytime soon.
 
Milano Questa said:
Raw is not a defined camera characteristic. It's just what people make it up to be.
DSLR users consider whatever comes out of the HDMI port to be Raw. Even if it's 8bit. Raw for them means uncompressed.

Technically speaking, Redcode 3:1 is not Raw. It's a modified version of the bayer data produced by the sensor. Thus, by the very definition of Raw, it can't be Raw.

It's like applying noise reduction (or in this case adding noise that didn't exist in the original image) in camera. How is that Raw?
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Bingo. Just call it .R3D
 
Wayne Morellini said:
Raw was uncompressed sensor data in my day, whatever format. Unfortunately people from communities like Red made Raw to be something it was not, based on a misconception of a compression routine that worked on Bayer type of raw data (we presume), in their own opinion.

However, does Red even use Bayer in all its sensors. There is so called random (square rotated), rgbw a potential Red partner Kodak used, and a number of others, including that 45 degree Sony pixel thing, and other part complimentary. I am a bit suspect of the rgbw, because it allows lower light from the clear tile, and dragon is shown to have a little color bias (please nobody get me to hunt down for links on that again, just look up my past threads).

Has anybody verified what color filter pattern they use these days with a microscope yet? I've asked in the past but never seen anybody actually state what they use on different cameras, just assumptions it is Bayer.
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this - this - this - this
 
This concept truly can be simplified into two categories, and it's odd in 2016 we are dredging through these 2007-2010 waters again.

You have:

- RAW Sensor Data
- Uncompressed RAW
- Compressed RAW

It's truly as simple as that in terms of the conversations. As for the nuance of methods and execution, that's a whole other conversation. Especially when it comes down to the specifics of image processing and the degree each manufacturer deploys it for better or worse.

What is interesting to me is the industry is going all sorts of directions. Types of projects, budgets, workflow, creatives, producers, studios, etc... are all influencing recording format/codecs.

I've also noticed in higher end productions and for discerning shooters that lower compression ratios or even uncompressed data rates are a growing trend. When analyzing REDCODE RAW for instance, as 2:1 REDCODE RAW Compression Ratios can be hit on Weapon these days at specific resolutions I'm wondering once we get there media-wise if we can get something like 8K 2:1 (or 3:1 for this example even) 24-60fps. That would represent a significant data footprint savings while maintaining the "damn near" visual fidelity of an Uncompressed RAW stream.

REDCODE RAW still represents a significant advantage to me when it come to workflow and while there are some nice advancements in several newer codecs and plenty of projects being captured in intermediate codecs I'm still all about Compressed RAW and the benefits that come with it.

Otherwise I'd be worried about building walls out of these helium filled hard drives and my damn house could float away.
 
Well Phil, strictly Raw is sensor data unmodified, therefore lossless. But my point is that people are applying a connative meaning and grouping more and more things into it. So it is literally coming to mean more things than it did. We might even hear "raw h264" someday (though I might have literally heard it already) which is OK if you mean unprocessed h264, even though it is not the root of it's use here). We just have to get used to it. Me personally, I'm happy enough if it includes sensor data with the noise corrected, and lossless footage, but lossy footage it is just marketing. But the tide is in.
 
Curtis Edlin said:
I'm sure a ton of people will switch and the marketplace will be flooded with Scarlet-W's if the Epic-W is available anytime soon.
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Seeing as the only people who have got a Scarlet-W at this point are people who initially were going with Raven, it's safe to assume the Scarlet-W is already an upgrade and stretch of budget for them. So I wouldn't bank on these people upgrading and abandoning Scarlet-W in mass for yet another upgrade.

I remember there was a rumor a few weeks to a month back about a phone call involving dealers and reps, and how parts were out of stock which was going to delay Scarlet-W to September before any cameras ship. Everybody chastised him, and he was forced to retract, but maybe there was some truth in that post, and he was asked to take it down? People accuse me of making up conspiracy theories sometimes though :) I'm not upset with RED really. I'm more upset with myself for believing the hype. I let Black Magic do it to me with the URSA Mini launch - I waited 8 months. And now it's happening all over again with the Scarlet-W. I've been waiting a year and half since my original BM pre-order. And now Epic-W might get announced. How easy would it be for me to just switch to that and wait another 8 months. It's actually humorous how this whole pre-order game works now. You could actually become a perpetual waiter as you just casually switch from one pre-order to the 'newest' preorder.

So yeah, to keep myself sane, I don't care if the helium camera literally floats by itself without a drone, I'm done with upgrading pre-orders.
 
Honestly, the way and speed Red is moving forward is fascinating on one hand, but worries me on the other hand.
While many folks myself included are desperately waiting for their Scarlet-W, Red next generation sensor, cameras, upgrades are just round the corner (Helium, Epic-W etc.). This is crazy IMO.
I put down US 18K for SW kit but am questioning if this is still the right move considering what is going on at Red right now. I sold my beloved Red1 Mx (a true workhorse) because my local dealer promised me I will get my SW by May/June. We are almost August and it doesn't look like I will be getting my SW any time soon.

So, I have no other choice but look for alternative.
I preordered Kinefinity TERRA yesterday. Specs look very promising. Terra 6K is supposed to be shipped anytime soon. And image from Kinemax isn't bad either.
Now, lets see which camera will step into my door first. Will still hold on my SW order, though.
Lets hope Red can pump up production of SW.
 
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I'm still waiting for the phone. It is the sort of product you licence to a manufacturer to include in their range. Solves a bunch of issues for a volume product, without tiring up manufacturing sources.
 
Thai Christen said:
So, I have no other choice but look for alternative.
I preordered Kinefinity TERRA yesterday. Specs look very promising.
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They just announced full Prores support. As in 6K downsample to 4K Prores 444HQ. And many more flavours.
Terra 6K kits shipping by end of July.
 
I know, and Terra 5K in September.
Thought Terra 5/6K can do 5/6K ProRes straight out of camera. Even Weapon can only do 4K ProRes.
I am very intrigued by their specs. And body weights 920gr only. Plus, you don't need to attach any module à la Red. Power in and Hdmi out in the body. Ideal for drone work! Then third party Ssds etc etc

If Kinefinity can ship Terra before my SW is allocated, I might cancel my SW order completely.
Then see how things evolve at Red. I can always jump back.
 
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I can't believe how many of you are willing to switch to the next camera they just rumored about. It's not even officially announced. I mean you are looking for at least a year of waiting. You have already waited 8 months for scarlet. You must really enjoy waiting.
 
Phil Holland said:
- RAW Sensor Data
- Uncompressed RAW
- Compressed RAW
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As a side-note on that, I'm wondering what people really use totally uncompressed RAW for? Obviously it's the best handling of the data, but it's like if every image on the internet were uncompressed TIFFs, on normal screens you wouldn't see any difference, but it would clog the entire connection just scrolling a normal webpage, filling up hard drive space after a couple of hours surfing. The same thing applies to shooting R3D. I don't think many productions at all manage to shoot an entire film in uncompressed RAW and those who tried have said they'd never do it again and that's with cameras shooting 3K, not 6 or 8K.

I'm trying to understand how people relate to cameras and productions because, based on how some people talk about all this, it seems like everyone have their own large post production facility in their backyard. The demands of 6 or 8K uncompressed RAW is enough for even the biggest companies to break their workflow. Only few productions have done it, like Gone Girl with their 6K DPX editing, but have people actually looked at the specs of the tech behind making that shit run? Most people can't tell the difference between 5:1 compressed RAW and uncompressed RAW, especially when it's downscaled and processed into something else like DPX. So why are so many screaming for uncompressed RAW?

Anyone with any production or production planning experience knows that on one hand you have the highest quality images possible and on the other you have the damn budget. Maybe only 0.5% of everyone in here might come close to doing a large project with uncompressed RAW and have the budget to handle it.

This is one of the most important things I'm considering thinking ahead at a possible 8K Helium upgrade. Yes, any small project could be handled, but doing episodic or feature film stuff or even short films will become a great pain to handle and fund. People barely handles 6K and many times I'm considering dropping to 5K just to handle larger portions of material.

8K is great, but we are far ahead of it's time as an end format. For downscaling, Phil has proven 8K downscale to 4K adds a lot of improvements to the image. But how many will be able to handle a real production with 8K files at 2:1?
 
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