The times we love...

[Blair S. Paulsen]

IMO "... at war with conventional thinking" is, both in fact and tenor, a very different statement than the "quick read" of your opening post might have suggested.

In any case, I assure you I find conventional thinking endlessly frustrating and stupid - so if that's the "war" you have in mind count me all the way in.

Cheers - #19

 

[Graeme Nattress]

SONY - F-65 has a sensor that boasts a true 4k amount of resolution lines, and with "over-sampleing" it can hit 8k with some sort of software upgrade or something. only 2x the amount of resolution gain with "over-sampleing"

EPIC M/X has a sensor that resolves just over a true 2k resolution but in camera "over-samples or renders" 5k. this is 2.5x the amount of resolution gain with "over-sampleing"

this truly indicates that RED is already far superior in its Software integration with is firmware and that RED knows how to fully realize in their products the full extent of their firmware without holding back anything the camera is safely capable of.

this excites me knowing that we are looking at 3 or 4 more sensor versions from RED and at least 2 more cameras to be released very soon!

Monstro i feel is going to be at least if not well over a true 4k sensor that RED will most likely build an amazing and superior feature set to accommodate.

thoughts?

Thoughts:

1) resolution is measured, and as much as measured resolution is good, visible aliasing is bad. Let's measure the F65's resolution and see if it can show 4k resolution, which I think it can, and let's see if it can measure 4k with low aliasing like the Epic can - which I don't think it will be able to do given the design.

2) EPIC does 5k from ~14mp. F35 does 4k from 20mp, and they also say it does 8k from those 20mp. I say they need at least 37mp to do 8k. I think they're 17mp short on their 8k claim.

3) EPIC real measured resolution including lens, and REDCODE recording is 4k. EPIC resolves well beyond 2k.

4) please don't use "over sampling" to mean something it doesn't mean.

5) Sony are on the right track promoting 4k and beyond. I can disagree on their marketing of their sensor being 8k when it is not, and I can disagree on the pros and cons of how they're achieving their 4k, but that 720p and 1080p are not the future is something we can absolutely agree on. We can also agree on a large single sensor bayer chip as that's exactly what they use too - ditching the inferior RGB stripe method they used on F35 to join with us and Arri in adopting the bayer CFA as has been used by the vast majority of the high quality digital stills cameras.

Graeme

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

If I would have said "We are at war with conventional thinking"... would you have reacted the same?

Jim

A guy names Terry Label (The founder of Val-Pak.. A large advertising company) reminds me of Jim.. I tend to find a common thread amoung really successful people who start with very little or nothing... They are fighters. They need to be, since most people will try to take what they have.. And the more successful they become, the more people will try to take (See 130 court cases.. As per Jim)... I said to Terry once "Hey, it's just business.. It's not personal".. Terry smiled and said "Think that if you want, but my business is VERY damn personal.. It gets that way when you realize that if you go under, you'll be responsible for over 100 people not having an income for their families.. It's personal Jay.."

Jim is guarding the turf of this company.. His "family".. He will defend it at all costs.. And if it means "War" (Business type war) then he will fight to win.

That said.. Do I agree with my friend Jim's post? No I don't. I believe such talk should be reserved for inside the walls of RED only (In there, I think it's a GREAT idea). But the public face of RED needs a more controlls, humble, and respectful tone. Just recently, Sony pictures was a CUSTOMER of RED's for Spiderman. RED Owns a Sony projector. The lines are not as clear cut as we would like to believe.

Most "owner" are kept away from the public, or on a very short leash for reasons such as Jim's post. Successful people are not known for being "polite" They are known for being successful. In Jim's case it's even worse cause he put it in writing!

I love RED. I love Jim (In a man sort of way).. This is my opinion and nothing else.. I am happy to be wrong, but this is what I believe.

Jay

 

[Peter Dmitriyev]

i love it. david vs. goliath. put all these big shot corporations to bed Jim!

 

[Cameron Dunlop]

4k camera in the IPhone 6!

 

[David Dennis]

Ok I’ve cooled down a bit… (I’m from Europe originally, I’m just REALLY anti war (in spite of working in a military and aerospace sector; the things that we innovate are designed to save lives; my father WAS brought up in a totalitarian regime, no matter how you skin this cat WAR is never cool. No matter what…))

You guys are talking as though Jim is planning to take his Bombardier Global Express corporate jet, add a bomb bay to the cargo area and go and attack Sony. In view of the engineering talent available at RED, if he was seriously planning such a thing, it would already be accomplished and Sony HQ would have been a smoldering ruin sometime in late 2005.

Despite the military style trappings you sometimes see around RED, it should be obvious that this is not Jim's strategy.

I think RED is more like a top-flight football team. It can be frustrating if you're at the top of your game, eager to compete, and your competition sits around letting you score goal after goal. Audiences get pretty bored at blowout games - sometimes they even leave their seats.

If you listen to Jim, he sounds just like a football coach at the beginning of the big game. "Those Sony guys, they're tough! But we're tougher and smarter and we'll beat them!"

But without a determined opponent, the game isn't as fun. And I believe that's how he thinks. He wants honorable competition where both sides work hard. Look how he treats Arri. Sure, he works super hard to make certain RED is better than Arri, but you get the feeling he likes and respects Arri's people and products. It's Sony, the company that seems to go out of its way to refuse to compete, that he dislikes.

So now Sony's suiting up for the big game, getting ready to compete. They are late. Their product looks weaker than RED's. But at least they are on the field where they belong!

Let's see how they can do, for the betterment of RED!

I'm pretty sure that's how Jim thinks .

David

 

[James Brundige]

Ok I’ve cooled down a bit… (I’m from Europe originally, I’m just REALLY anti war (in spite of working in a military and aerospace sector; the things that we innovate are designed to save lives; my father WAS brought up in a totalitarian regime, no matter how you skin this cat WAR is never cool. No matter what…))

I’m all for defending something that technically makes sense but the abject need to spoil for a more than just a scrap tells me that there is a lot more going on behind the scenes, and we are being “prepped” for what Jim describes as “WAR” (His words). I would kinda like to know why??? I don’t think this is an utterly stupid question. I’m not taking what he says literally (even though the words as such don’t sit well with me, it’s more OK..what’s really going on?)

I suspect it might have more to do with Jim wanting to move into the broadcast/consumer sector and perhaps Sony etc al's (home markets). If the S-3d methods that RED propose make technical sense then we will back that up 100%. All I can say is that I speculate, and that’s a huge speculation that the big 3 have made it clear that they are not going to make it easy for Jim/RED?

I'm sure in the next few months things will become more clear (I hope)...

You guys need to relax a little bit. It's just a metaphor; no one is going to die, and competition is great for us consumers.

 

[Jannard]

So it isn't the word, it is the context. If you consider the intent of the post, it is the same as "at war with conventional thinking".

Jim

If I would have said "We are at war with conventional thinking"... would you have reacted the same?

Jim

To be honest that would have peaked my interest a hell of lot more (really).

…that actually means something (close to my heart, if I’m being totally honest)

Cheers,

Eric

 

[Wayne Morellini]

http://xkcd.com/732/

Good point. They show off around 8k displays, because they can do 8k displays, how much easier 4k for years since 2007.

 

[Roshdi Alkadri]

Jim, seeing that broadcasters have finally transitioned to HD, when do you expect the industry to switch to 4k and beyond? Or is what you're mentioning applicable to projection systems and displays only?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Thoughts:

1) resolution is measured, and as much as measured resolution is good, visible aliasing is bad. Let's measure the F65's resolution and see if it can show 4k resolution, which I think it can, and let's see if it can measure 4k with low aliasing like the Epic can - which I don't think it will be able to do given the design.

2) EPIC does 5k from ~14mp. F35 does 4k from 20mp, and they also say it does 8k from those 20mp. I say they need at least 37mp to do 8k. I think they're 17mp short on their 8k claim.

3) EPIC real measured resolution including lens, and REDCODE recording is 4k. EPIC resolves well beyond 2k.

4) please don't use "over sampling" to mean something it doesn't mean.

5) Sony are on the right track promoting 4k and beyond. I can disagree on their marketing of their sensor being 8k when it is not, and I can disagree on the pros and cons of how they're achieving their 4k, but that 720p and 1080p are not the future is something we can absolutely agree on. We can also agree on a large single sensor bayer chip as that's exactly what they use too - ditching the inferior RGB stripe method they used on F35 to join with us and Arri in adopting the bayer CFA as has been used by the vast majority of the high quality digital stills cameras.

Graeme

A pixel is a pixel, what you are saying is the quality of 4k delivery. That is the way to deal with those upcoming hail of martial arts darts of the sub $300 near 4k cameras within 2 years. You have a tank, they have darts, end of story.

I haven't looked at the Sony, but there are ways to achieve 8k. I know from my own previouse camera design.

 

[Jannard]

4K starts now. You are seeing more displays being announced every day. Once people get used to 4K, there is no turing back. Everyone will scramble to be a part of it and not be left behind. That includes broadcast.

Jim

Jim, seeing that broadcasters have finally transitioned to HD, when do you expect the industry to switch to 4k and beyond? Or is what you're mentioning applicable to projection systems and displays only?

 

[Kim Frank]

...

 

[Michael Brennan]

You bet me to it Mike
Ive said before that NHK et al have been more interested in working toward 8k than 4k, the step from HD to 4k being not dramatic enough. Consider this point when referring to Sony's sales pitch that HD was "good enough".


In my view, the f65 development is largely underwritten in both engineering and in company support, by Sony's long term goal of UHDTV. Given the work Sony are putting into 4k recording post equipment and workflow, it wont be long before they release a 4k 3 or 4 chip 2/3 inch (ish) TV camera. This is good news for everyone since rollout of 4k and 8K TVs will be positively influenced by live broadcast 4K OR UHDTV.


Mike Brennan

The T-head configuration has been available for the Sony F950 for at least 7 years now.



I don't know where you got that impression. Sony has been talking about 4K for a long, long time. They released the first commercial 4K projectors a number of years ago. And I really don't see them playing catch up, I see them going a different path and offering a solid, competitive product. (edit)

 

[Bob Moore]

I believe such talk should be reserved for inside the walls of RED only (In there, I think it's a GREAT idea). But the public face of RED needs a more controlls, humble, and respectful tone. Just recently, Sony pictures was a CUSTOMER of RED's for Spiderman. RED Owns a Sony projector. The lines are not as clear cut as we would like to believe.

Most "owner" are kept away from the public, or on a very short leash for reasons such as Jim's post. Successful people are not known for being "polite" They are known for being successful. In Jim's case it's even worse cause he put it in writing!

I love RED. I love Jim (In a man sort of way).. This is my opinion and nothing else.. I am happy to be wrong, but this is what I believe.

Jay

Personally, I find the semantics used are not out of context with RED's stated vision and business ethic...from the ICONs used in advertising to the stickers and the logo red wear it is a consistent
indeed persuasive presentation.

Reduser is not per se a public venue...to Jim and Jarred it is a family forum and interchange. Presenting his view here is not the same as relating to the public at large or relating to business
competitors and colleagues in general.

War carries a negative connotation for the present generation...those of us who have benefitted from the sacrifice of those who preceded us...at times a necessary sacrifice
to defend a business, family or whole society from an evil or overwhelming abuse of power or position, need to keep a perspective that life is not always fair and our surfeit and
leisure came at great cost. Tolkein and CS Lewis wrote endearing epics related to the struggle of good over evil...most of identify with the underdog and the abused as needing protection and support their benefactors.

When Jim staked his future and his reputation in upholding his vision, it was not to genuflect and accept anything less that a full share of potential reward that would be realized
in successfully building his business and praxis. That represents a challenge to the conventional and entrenched interests of those who previously held the high ground. Without a doubt they have
resisted the "paradigm shift" his vision presented...it is truly a disruptive technology and vision. I have no doubt that they have and will fight tooth and nail to defend their positions.

Example: F3 new camera hobbled with an old codec which necessitates upgrades or buying up to really enter into the ground staked by the R1 and the EPIC. Come on - 4,2,0 8bit 1920x1080 internal to SXS at 35mBPS.
Double the investment and we might be able to get you 444 SLOG at "1920x1080" Gee thanks guys.

You bet it will be a struggle...one that would not happen for another decade had RED not sought the high ground.

Jim on a short leash....just what Sony and Arri would prefer, thank you not.

Keep up the GOOD fight ... do the right thing.

Bob

 

[Eric Lange]

So it isn't the word, it is the context. If you consider the intent of the post, it is the same as "at war with conventional thinking".

Jim

Sorry I just had dinner…

In essence you seek to re-frame or clarify the context…

That’s totally Ok of course.

The reason why I speak up is that I don’t really believe terminology and rhetoric that is synonymous with all sorts of “great causes” that didn’t work out so great really doesn’t “test well”, especially from a more European perspective. This is raised in a spirit of constructive dialog.

I think J.A Kelly’s post had a cogent point in that this is normally “talk” that might be reserved for inside the walls of RED. Perhaps one could say that the only thing you are guilty of (being generous to a fault) is over-sharing. Perhaps this is just an “artifact” of your generosity and enthusiasm.

As to some of the deeper things I alluded to; …you are very sharp…; no doubt things will become clear as day when the time is right.

Very Best (as always),

Eric

(Really looking forward to running with [RED based (we hope)] S-3d formats that make solid sense, beyond mere “unconventional” thinking)

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I really would love to avoid historical and philosohical discussions espacially about war on these pages, but to answer your Question: yes.
If something like 'conventional thinking' exists or could be exactly defined you would still be talking about someone or a group of people that for themselfs believe in that way of thinking. To use the word 'war' in the term of someone elses way of thinking, or way of doing things is in my honest Opinion more than inadequate, because every elaborate studie about history would show that the argument about belief (not only in a religious way) was the main reason for war.
I am sure you don't mean it in that way all I'm saying is that I really dislike these metaphors not only by you but many others in this thread.
Let me cite something out of a book my girlfriend is reading (I'll try to translate it): More than once the belief in God, the fatherland, or economical want has been the justification for wars in which the accuracy of the beliefs was in the end decided by the effectivenes of their supporters.
I really like the way RED thinks and does things but words still remain words with a powerful meaning once spoken out loud or written down. And words like 'war', 'fight' or 'battle' are strong words with a horrible meaning to many people in any context.
You don't have to be against anything to go for something.

Honestly, I suggest, for the proper context of thinking about this, you do really get a translation of Sun Tzu's The Art of War. It is a fascinating, and very engaging read. It was written over 2500 years ago and there are many translations. The essence of the book, however, is how to defeat any enemy without waging a war of violence. It is essentially about strategy. What is interesting is the use of the word "war" as there seems to be a variety of ways this could have been translated but many have settled on the "strategy" idea. Perhaps if we ALL thought about war in this manner, there would be fewer deaths in the world because of mass violence.

Now really, let's not overreact to the rhetoric when the context and the intent is quite clear. :coolgleamA:

 

[Eric Lange]

Personally, I find the semantics used are not out of context with RED's stated vision and business ethic...from the ICONs used in advertising to the stickers and the logo red wear it is a consistent
indeed persuasive presentation.

Reduser is not per se a public venue...to Jim and Jarred it is a family forum and interchange. Presenting his view here is not the same as relating to the public at large or relating to business
competitors and colleagues in general.

War carries a negative connotation for the present generation...those of us who have benefitted from the sacrifice of those who preceded us...at times a necessary sacrifice
to defend a business, family or whole society from an evil or overwhelming abuse of power or position, need to keep a perspective that life is not always fair and our surfeit and
leisure came at great cost. Tolkein and CS Lewis wrote endearing epics related to the struggle of good over evil...most of identify with the underdog and the abused as needing protection and support their benefactors.

When Jim staked his future and his reputation in upholding his vision, it was not to genuflect and accept anything less that a full share of potential reward that would be realized
in successfully building his business and praxis. That represents a challenge to the conventional and entrenched interests of those who previously held the high ground. Without a doubt they have
resisted the "paradigm shift" his vision presented...it is truly a disruptive technology and vision. I have no doubt that they have and will fight tooth and nail to defend their positions.

Example: F3 new camera hobbled with an old codec which necessitates upgrades or buying up to really enter into the ground staked by the R1 and the EPIC. Come on - 4,2,0 8bit 1920x1080 internal to SXS at 35mBPS.
Double the investment and we might be able to get you 444 SLOG at "1920x1080" Gee thanks guys.

You bet it will be a struggle...one that would not happen for another decade had RED not sought the high ground.

Jim on a short leash....just what Sony and Arri would prefer, thank you not.

Keep up the GOOD fight ... do the right thing.

Bob

Now we are in real f*ing trouble, he used the word praxis…(ahhhhhhhh!)

The five people who are reading this that have been forced to digest French Structural Marxism will know what I mean..You definitely get the prize, never in a million years would expect someone on RED to use the word Praxis.. Wow.. This is an amazing place…

(peace out!, I’m going to watch Hacket mangle "obtanium" to go “off grid”)

Nice one,

Eric

 

[Bob Moore]

he used the word praxis…forced to digest French Structural Marxism will know what I mean..

Nice one,

Eric

Link:
http://www.wordreference.com/definition/praxis

Predates Marx by a couple of centuries.


Actually used it from a theological standpoint...sorry you were offended.

One word out of many does not really validate your criticism....but perhaps I should not be surprised.

Thanks for your pithy, informed rejoinder.

Oh and peace to you...in whatever context you wish to entertain it.

Bob

 

[Marc Fisher]

It seems that these events have taken us from the realm of technology into philosophy ! Must be Epic ! M