The times we love...

[Bob Moore]

he used the word praxis…forced to digest French Structural Marxism will know what I mean..

Nice one,

Eric

Actually used it from a theological standpoint...sorry you were offended.

One word out of many does not really validate your criticism....but perhaps I should not be suprised.

Thanks for your pithy, informed rejoinder.

Oh and peace to you...in whatever context you entertain it.

Bob

 

[Eric Lange]

Actually used it from a theological standpoint...sorry you were offended.

One word out of many does not really validate your criticism....but perhaps I should not be suprised.

Thanks for your pithy, informed rejoinder.

Oh and peace to you...in whatever context you entertain it.

Bob

No, just pleasantly surprised and entertained. Amazing really.

Eric

 

[Bob Moore]

Eric,

I misread your intent.

My abject and humble apology.

Regards,

Bob

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Some good and interesting discussion going on here.. I am learnig stuff.

Jay

 

[Bill Anderson]

This is not the first time these concerns have been voiced, and I think it is safe to say that all of us are anti war.
I've spent a great deal of time chanting, waving banners, printing and pasting posters, running from cops, writing letters to editors and politicos,
and I can wag a pretty mean finger, but I've come to accept what Jim is going on about when he rages against the machine in his own particular way;
and I feel there is something more appealing about Jim than the typical soft approach of the rest of the industry: the same industry that sees you and me
as a vague demographic. When it comes to the competition, Jim is a veritable Che Guevara, but when it comes to you and me, he's.... well, a veritable Che Guevara ((( :


"Shoot":
Well, shoot, I don't have that (Susan Sontag) problem with a camera "shoot": you can shoot your mouth off, shoot the puck or ball,
shoot the breeze, shoot the rapids, overshoot the mark, and the whole shooting match.

 

[Jon Thomasberg]

Honestly, some people will take offense to anything. Clearly if read in proper context, there is no malicious intent in what Jim was saying. Rejoice that the man has passion about what he does and stop dissecting every phrase the man posts, or else there will come a day when he gets tired of walking on egg-shells for everyone and stops posting altogether. I dare anyone to point out a man in Jim's position that not only shares his thoughts somewhat freely on an open forum, but is also willing to discuss about them -- name one other!......Yeah, that's what I thought!

If it wasn't for his passion, RED would not exist and we would likely still be stuck in a world of mediocrity and still waiting for the 'right camera' to come along. Pushing-the-envelope is a lifestyle -- you either do or you don't, there is no light switch for it. You can't be passionate about inventing ground-breaking products and defying the so-called 'conventional wisdom' whilst walking the PC tightrope all the time. C'mon guys, man up and grow a pair!

 

[IAN SUN]

Honestly, some people will take offense to anything. Clearly if read in proper context, there is no malicious intent in what Jim was saying. Rejoice that the man has passion about what he does and stop dissecting every phrase the man posts, or else there will come a day when he gets tired of walking on egg-shells for everyone and stops posting altogether. I dare anyone to point out a man in Jim's position that not only shares his thoughts somewhat freely on an open forum, but is also willing to discuss about them -- name one other!......Yeah, that's what I thought!

If it wasn't for his passion, RED would not exist and we would likely still be stuck in a world of mediocrity and still waiting for the 'right camera' to come along. Pushing-the-envelope is a lifestyle -- you either do or you don't, there is no light switch for it. You can't be passionate about inventing ground-breaking products and defying the so-called 'conventional wisdom' whilst walking the PC tightrope all the time. C'mon guys, man up and grow a pair!

Yeah well we all have our points of view.

One thing we can agree on is that we Love the REDvolution that has overthrown the conventional business model of planned obsolescence.

Lets get back to discussing the things we love.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

At the risk of sounding like a total pussy, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pussy

Total war is NEVER good.

Rally cries to total war…not good.

OK so the occasional scrap to maintain your position and then some, fine.

Looking through various company histories, there really are a couple of notable examples (Intergraph comes to mind). Even if you have some of the most promising technologies on the planet and IP, if (for example) something of the scale of the Win-tell juggernaught is minded to fuck with you, you pretty much stay fucked, or are forced to retreat from an area that was originally “yours”.

The sad reality is, if things get nasty and the teams of Lawyers need to get involved, you are then totally mired in one of the most miserable battles imaginable (think WWI). Absolutely soul destroying, you will spend many millions of dollars and several years just to determine which state the case should be tried in (Bastards…).

I personally thought that the initial attempts that the SONY marketing guys made to introduce the idea of the Q 67 (for example) was a little dodgy/almost reprehensible (very misleading)… These guys have massive patent portfolios if they are minded to do so they can haul you in to court and try to sue you for using a low level technology that you didn’t even know that you were using that they happen to own… that everybody else is using for free. It gets very ugly.


The Red family of products are amazing, and has been said many times before, folks that need and want to buy RED will; Jim has indeed (in my opinion brought into existence a true Digital Cinema Camera) and he is taking that “space” very well.

The reality is that you can’t operate in vacuum no matter how many products that you deliver to offer a complete workflow solution. Like it or not you/we are in a larger “technocratic” eco system. You just can’t get around that. I.e. you still have to do business with these guys (i.e. your competitors). There are many examples of competitors basically benefiting from cross licensed technologies and so on. I.e. if you have a stake in your competitor’s company, it’s not always a bad thing… [Things seem to be presented in rather black and white terms].


I think Theodore Roosevelt’s idea “walk softly and carry a big stick” is a better ideology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Stick_ideology
Roosevelt described his style of foreign policy as "the exercise of intelligent forethought and of decisive action sufficiently far in advance of any likely crisis".
This seems to be a better approach (I think).

Even if your competitors pick up the phone and say “Dude… we are going to fucking burry you”, there are ways to deal with that. SONY et al will have the good sense not to fuck with RED… (I hope)…

I think with RED equipment in hand it’s better to act like the cat that’s got the cream, rather than say FUCK SONY! (for example). (Unless SONY are really trying to fuck with you...

On what Eric was saying, I have read that in Japan companies know Sony as the Ninja, and they know "The Art of War". I have yet to read it, but read it yourselves, because what I have heard from it will teach you very valuable lessons.about the game of pulling the rug out under you yourselves. This is why I have allways spruoked a strategy for Red to stay ahead of the Ninja, I allways had my eye on what Sony could do in particular, but the whole Japanese industry can move. If you are a real threat to them expect that they may come to you with a deal to do business together in a corporative project even exchange or license technology, and at some stage you might be strapped fir cash enough, or confident in position or victory enough to accept (also watch for unknown associates and past employees knowing the game). If you don't...

A good example of another strategy, is what happened with the original DIY digital cinema camera projects at dvinfo. They responded by improving camera sensor quality and eventually the possibility of hdmi out recording, which is exactly what I intended. The hdmi recording thing was a bit of an illusion I understand, but it was enough to take away interest in the diy digital camera movement, shd virtually kill it. But my strategy was not just to worry them into improving the consumer and prosumer sectors from the marginal performance direction they were heading, but to attract the interest of a commercial company to produce the professional cameras cheap, in particular a cheap camera that is very much identical to the original announced scarlet 2/3rds for the markets it used to be aimed for, which I publicly outlined. Unfortunately the first company seemed scared off by an overly ambitious armature attempt to deliver less. The second company was expensive (si, who was with us from nearer the beginning). The third (Drake) dissapeared who was from one of our professional members I had been in communication with. The forth was a company I failed to get on board, but then turned once somebody rkse recontacted them, Elphel, but only supported a diy project like the original company, Sumix who eventually returned with (contacted by the original spark of tgd efforts, Steve pip, who latter retired and asked me to keep in contact with them. But they really utterly, devastatingly, and unfortunately dissapeared Then si, Elphel and Red turned up and even I forgot about them). We don't know how many operatives were around, as various mainstream companies are known for, but some suspicouse things happened in hindsight (but as a race we people just get plain dumb). There was also a failed cheap hdsdi recorder that seemed to be coming along nicely but disappeared, and various amature projects, and Chris Hurd trying to take credit for something, which is rather like a best mate trying to take credit for something you and other mates came up with at his place while he was in another room (I know he dud put up a thread asking for opinion for a new upcoming camera (Red) and a Red, si, drake I think, and Elphel forum to his credit. Thanks Chris if your out there. But no diy camera forum, even though this was where the revolution started, including the previouse DVX-100 camera uncompressed record hacking project) and has been more important to the industry then the lens adaptors have been (though they were much more fun).

I deliberately spruoked the project around the place in a deliberate strategy to worry companies into improving camera sensors, camera quality, codec quality, and uncompressed out recording, as the consumer cameras segment ( and prosumer to an extent) were going backwards and way behind the state of the art. I got most of what I was trying too.

A single operative in the field is worth a lot, that not even a army can fight. I'm no Ninja, otherwise I would not tell you this and probably be a bit more selfish.

What's the point, to encourage people to do, and show what, a bit of proactive right wing humanitarianism consumerism can do without having to lie or di anything wrong. I encourage others to do likewise. I got even Sony to do what I was trying to get them to do multiple more times than what I have mentioned here. The simple truth out there that something is better is enough to get them to upgrade. So go and buy the camera/product that you need that is best for the price, but don't/try not to, buy much from somebody that is going to use it to put better competitors out of business, because afterwards they don't need to offer you much more. In other words, If Red is going to be the better competitor into the future with the better value for money camera you need, buy the Red camera ( if you can safely afford).

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I must say Red has zero representation in the under $2000 segment I was originally aiming for, and we are yet to see an under $5000 fhd-4k camera I was skso aiming at. The under $1000 market was more a convenient low end pro video aim, but time amoung the pocket camera crowd has yielded some interesting results, the old Sanyo HD2000 and camcorder version unfortunately being the pinnical of the sector.

 

[Elsie N]

I really would love to avoid historical and philosohical discussions espacially about war on these pages, but to answer your Question: yes.
If something like 'conventional thinking' exists or could be exactly defined you would still be talking about someone or a group of people that for themselfs believe in that way of thinking. To use the word 'war' in the term of someone elses way of thinking, or way of doing things is in my honest Opinion more than inadequate, because every elaborate studie about history would show that the argument about belief (not only in a religious way) was the main reason for war.
I am sure you don't mean it in that way all I'm saying is that I really dislike these metaphors not only by you but many others in this thread.
Let me cite something out of a book my girlfriend is reading (I'll try to translate it): More than once the belief in God, the fatherland, or economical want has been the justification for wars in which the accuracy of the beliefs was in the end decided by the effectivenes of their supporters.
I really like the way RED thinks and does things but words still remain words with a powerful meaning once spoken out loud or written down. And words like 'war', 'fight' or 'battle' are strong words with a horrible meaning to many people in any context.
You don't have to be against anything to go for something.

Kumba effing ya!

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Do NOT make the mistake of regarding Sony as a monolithic corporate entity; it is not. It's like IBM, or worse; a collection of separate fiefdoms flying in loose formation, jealously protecting their individual profit centers and sometimes at outright war with one another.

But quite a few good brains there. I'd love to asset-strip Sony; perhaps Jim will.

Mike

 

[Nathaniel Haban]

We have been trying to pick a fight for 5 years. Finally we have one.

I am so happy...

NEVER is a person giddy about a war unless they're pretty damned sure they can win.

And if a camera as amazing as the RED One started the war, imagine the camera that's going to end it.

 

[Leo Sardello]

I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. There are a vast number of people here taking this WAY too seriously. I mean way, way too seriously. Jim's statement relates to actually physical combat about as much as this emocon relates to me actually banging my head against a wall... :emote_headwall:

I am not actually banging my head against the wall, you don't need to call an ambulance for me.

I mean, if you ask someone "Hey, how do you think the (insert favorite competitive sports team name here) are going to do this weekend?" And the response is "We're going to slaughter them!", does that offend you too? Do you feel that's an actual call to violence? Or you know, just a figure of speech?

RED, you are my team. I am rooting for you. I want you to win and I want you to win big. I want you to slaughter the competition. But not literally just so we are clear.




*EDIT: Nor is it about eliminating all competition. It's just a descriptive representation of the attitude with which RED will approach competition, an attitude of no compromise.

 

[Scott Auerbach]

We may have taken a knife to a gun fight... but we have a bazooka in our back pocket.

Jim

I believe the bazooka's in the front pocket. Of everyone with an Epic.

 

[Jon Thomasberg]

....thats not a knife. :smile5:

 

[Rich Schaefer]

Thoughts:

1) resolution is measured, and as much as measured resolution is good, visible aliasing is bad. Let's measure the F65's resolution and see if it can show 4k resolution, which I think it can, and let's see if it can measure 4k with low aliasing like the Epic can - which I don't think it will be able to do given the design.

2) EPIC does 5k from ~14mp. F35 does 4k from 20mp, and they also say it does 8k from those 20mp. I say they need at least 37mp to do 8k. I think they're 17mp short on their 8k claim.

3) EPIC real measured resolution including lens, and REDCODE recording is 4k. EPIC resolves well beyond 2k.

4) please don't use "over sampling" to mean something it doesn't mean.

5) Sony are on the right track promoting 4k and beyond. I can disagree on their marketing of their sensor being 8k when it is not, and I can disagree on the pros and cons of how they're achieving their 4k, but that 720p and 1080p are not the future is something we can absolutely agree on. We can also agree on a large single sensor bayer chip as that's exactly what they use too - ditching the inferior RGB stripe method they used on F35 to join with us and Arri in adopting the bayer CFA as has been used by the vast majority of the high quality digital stills cameras.

Graeme

Graeme - You are the man! I love the way you can pixel fuc anyone out there but you don't, you see the bigger picture in the real world!

Cheers Mate!
Rich

 

[Stephen Matthews]

 

[Petri Teittinen]

I believe the bazooka's in the front pocket. Of everyone with an Epic.

Or maybe they're just happy to see you.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

On what Eric was saying, I have read that in Japan companies know Sony as the Ninja, and they know "The Art of War".

I guess that's why Apple is eating their lunch... and now RED is coming along to eat their dinner.

 

[Eric Lange]

I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. There are a vast number of people here taking this WAY too seriously. I mean way, way too seriously. Jim's statement relates to actually physical combat about as much as this emocon relates to me actually banging my head against a wall... :emote_headwall:

I am not actually banging my head against the wall, you don't need to call an ambulance for me.

I mean, if you ask someone "Hey, how do you think the (insert favorite competitive sports team name here) are going to do this weekend?" And the response is "We're going to slaughter them!", does that offend you too? Do you feel that's an actual call to violence? Or you know, just a figure of speech?

RED, you are my team. I am rooting for you. I want you to win and I want you to win big. I want you to slaughter the competition. But not literally just so we are clear.



*EDIT: Nor is it about eliminating all competition. It's just a descriptive representation of the attitude with which RED will approach competition, an attitude of no compromise.

In an attempt to tidy up loose ends and move forward.

Nobody takes Jim’s statements literally (we whoever we IS are not that brain damaged).

I really don’t like cowards, yes men and sheep, never have never will.

One of the points put forward is do we still have to use rhetoric and ideas that appeal to twelve year olds boys? I really thought that we had moved (permanently) beyond that?

Jim is Jim (super awesome) that he is, it just bothers me when these types of metaphors are used, the more “youthfully” minded tended to pipe in with doctored photographs of SONY head quarters being bombed or exploded (just like the twin towers), (as they did) .. or people talking about wearing dog tags etc. If I was twelve, I would think this was really cool and funny. …, however I am 41… ; Trapped in the board room it’s sometimes hard to make the case for using RED systems when there is this sort of aspect… or perception, which does NOT reflect the thinking behind the technologies (or the technologies themselves). The idea is that the systems are designed by “grown-ups” for “grown-ups” for “grown up (real world) applications”. [The kid’s camp was pretty cool though].

So I am saying, (like a brother) (i.e. I am not personally offended and I am not making personal accusations), “dude I don’t think this War mongering “type” language “tests” well these days, especially in Europe…??? Looking through the posts and for the people that had the courage to speak up or try to argue the point, this seems to be the case. This is a minor point perhaps…(take it or leave it).

Reading between the lines, the more important question is how is this all going to pan out when 4k (particularly in the broadcast sector) and other deliverables, such as projectors, new RED formats and systems for s-3d in the home and elsewhere, and REDray are deployed in the market place? Jim seems to be indicating the possibility of aggressive “counter marketing” by the likes of SONY, Panasonic (and in S-3d Samsung?) etc. The Q67 Sony “debacle” was a real eye opener… in essence the way that technical facts and basic math can be severely skewed for marketing purposes.

The things that Graeme are saying are super interesting,

Graeme wrote

2) EPIC does 5k from ~14mp. F35 does 4k from 20mp, and they also say it does 8k from those 20mp. I say they need at least 37mp to do 8k. I think they're 17mp short on their 8k claim.
…
5) Sony are on the right track promoting 4k and beyond. I can disagree on their marketing of their sensor being 8k when it is not, and I can disagree on the pros and cons of how they're achieving their 4k, but that 720p and 1080p are not the future is something we can absolutely agree on. We can also agree on a large single sensor bayer chip as that's exactly what they use too - ditching the inferior RGB stripe method they used on F35 to join with us and Arri in adopting the bayer CFA as has been used by the vast majority of the high quality digital stills cameras.

Need to do some research on what SONY is really doing and how it’s being “pushed”.

It seems from what JIM writes that this indicates that, for example SONY, Panasonic, and Samsumg etc. (with half an eye on S-3d) are NOT being particularly cooperative…?. And in essence that a format “war” of sorts (at very least) is in our future. It’s also clear from what Jim is (perhaps) saying, RED is going to have to be very aggressive in all market areas, as it seems that the others are going to try their utmost to turn potential customers, (at all scales) away from RED, i.e. expect severe counter (or negative) marketing. [This is why the stereotype of the “arrested development”, aesthetically challenged, rabid “fan-boy” seems to give the competition “ammunition” (to use more military metaphors).] [why give your competitiors any ammunition at all???] For a lot of clients, more than 50% is about how the products and systems are PERCIEVED, rather than what the performance of the systems, instruments and equipment really is. These sorts of perceptions and stereotypes don’t always play very well in the Broadcast sector either, especially when you are investing many millions of dollars in new systems and formats. Jim clearly has broadcast in his “sights”, and the SONY architecture is (possibly) a little more geared up for that…So it looks like things are going to get pretty ugly and Jim seems to indicate that an ALL or NOTHING approach is in our future. I.e. be prepared to for things to get pretty ugly and difficult in NEWER areas that RED want to move into.

So how do you get 8k from 20MP?

Cheers,

Eric

BTW, its just feedback, not life or death...