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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The PAL problem

William Long said:
It's kind how our NTSC friends keep offering workarounds but that is not really the question that is being asked.

If you have a 24fps based production and need to increase the frame rate for a simple shot to more or less double.
In most cases, would you prefer to use 46 or 48 ? I would 'guess' a straight line.

We (the 25fps PAL community) would like to understand what prevents having those two extra frames that would take us to 50 ?

A) Is it an enormous technical problem ?
B) Too costly?
C) Political (60 vs 50) ?
D) Camera manufacturers hate PAL and are just lazy ?! :))


As 'Kipper' John mentions above; maybe the vertical scan height is the limiting factor for frame rate.
Whatever it is, it would be good to know ?

Are there any RED technicians or other experts out there willing to throw a little light on the subject ?
Or just fix it !
Click to expand...

Good speech, William. Trying to help with your "million dollar question"...I'd say it's probably C...wait, ..no, it's D! :smilewinkgrin:
Hopefully RED is already working on a proper solution for PAL world...it might still last 2-3 months until the black cams are being released...hope dies last.
(after all, 50fps@FF/5k worked with Scarlet-W, right?)
 
Satsuki Murashige said:
You can change the shutter angle to 172.8 to avoid 50Hz flicker at 48fps.
Click to expand...

What I meant with "a flip away" is to either be able to preset or have the option to choose, say, 48 fps PAL directly. Still doesn't help if HDRx gets into future firmware, for that we need 50 fps.
The issue isn't that there are some workarounds. The issue is that we need fast flips during a shoot. It just take one mistake of a decimal to screw the footage up in a way not possible on a shoot outside of PAL regions.
It's always easy to not see problems that aren't present for you personally, but I've seen too much material from productions screwed up because someone didn't have the time to double-check their "workaround".

William Long said:
As 'Kipper' John mentions above; maybe the vertical scan height is the limiting factor for frame rate.
Click to expand...

There shouldn't be any vertical scan since it's a global shutter. The limitation would be something else and/or processor-based.


Thomas B. said:
(after all, 50fps@FF/5k worked with Scarlet-W, right?)
Click to expand...

Rolling shutter sensor cameras are limited by a combination of the rolling shutter readout and processor power. If the sensor can handle more than the processor can handle, the processor is the limit and vice versa. So the Komodo global sensor might not be able to handle 50 fps, even if the processor can. If the processor can't do it, but the sensor can, a software firmware could eventually tweak performance to handle 2 more frames. That is at least a possibility.

For now, I just want some workaround presets so we can either choose "48 fps PAL based" in order to change the shutter at the same time. And a 50 fps resolution maximum without having to use wide 6K mode.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
What I meant with "a flip away" is to either be able to preset or have the option to choose, say, 48 fps PAL directly. Still doesn't help if HDRx gets into future firmware, for that we need 50 fps.
The issue isn't that there are some workarounds. The issue is that we need fast flips during a shoot. It just take one mistake of a decimal to screw the footage up in a way not possible on a shoot outside of PAL regions.
It's always easy to not see problems that aren't present for you personally, but I've seen too much material from productions screwed up because someone didn't have the time to double-check their "workaround".
Click to expand...

I thought 172.8 was already built into the cameras as a preset shutter angle? I believe it is in Alexas and Sonys. And also most film cameras with adjustable shutter angles. Yes, you’re right though - two button presses is more than one. I can see how that would be annoying.

Anyway as I’ve said before, I do see your point about all the other issues surrounding not having 50fps available. I’m not trying to minimize anyone’s issues in PAL land, other than specifically with 50Hz flicker at 48fps. Yes, everything else is still a problem that needs to be addressed.
 
Satsuki Murashige said:
I thought 172.8 was already built into the cameras as a preset shutter angle? I believe it is in Alexas and Sonys. And also most film cameras with adjustable shutter angles. Yes, you’re right though - two button presses is more than one. I can see how that would be annoying.
Click to expand...

Funny how it's always Americans that seem to think this workaround is fine when they don't have to use it themselves.

JB
 
John Brawley said:
Funny how it's always Americans that seem to think this workaround is fine when they don't have to use it themselves.

JB
Click to expand...

Kind a bit like taking their 23,976 away, '....just use 24 fps guys'. You can always make it work somehow! ;)

(Not mentioning Satsuki in particular, more the vibe towards the whole: Forget about 50fps and stop caring. There's reasons to care.)

Personally, for the profects I shoot and for the style it's hardly more than 33-36fps or then from 120 onwards. But I agree, for PAL countries this can be a dealbreaker for many people & productions.
 
We don't need to polarise things - anybody could be confronted with this situation in a 50hz country, visitor or otherwise.
So, I really hope Satsuki doesn't show himself out!

But the question remains: why can't/don't camera manufacturers provide those extra two frames ?

Expert answer anyone ?
 
Satsuki Murashige said:
I don’t think that’s really what I said or meant, but no worries sir. I’ll show myself out. :)
Click to expand...

I don’t mean to be rude, or salty and did not mean for you to leave the conversation, but the “workaround” has already been suggested a few times in this thread, and you only have to look at the location to see that it’s generally not 50Hz shooters making that suggestion. We know. We already do this....We’re 5 pages in and that’s not the point of the discussion.


Andreas comment about taking 23.976 away is a great analogy. 50Hz shooters never need that frame rate and would naturally say, just shoot 24 because that’s what we do....

JB
 
The firmware is still in beta. Do we know for certain that Komodo won’t do 50fps at 5k or is that just a limitation of current firmware?
It does 50fps @ 6k 2.4:1 apparently.
 
Digging this up because it feels as if 5k 50FPS should technically be possible, considering 6k 2.39 50FPS has effectively a higher pixel count. 5k 50FPS would be the perfect mode for anyone who needs Slomo in the PAL territory.

Since new recording options are being implemented, I'm hoping this might follow as well.
 
Leonard Frederic Caspari said:
Digging this up because it feels as if 5k 50FPS should technically be possible, considering 6k 2.39 50FPS has effectively a higher pixel count. 5k 50FPS would be the perfect mode for anyone who needs Slomo in the PAL territory.

Since new recording options are being implemented, I'm hoping this might follow as well.
Click to expand...

The way it works is that you count the number of vertical pixels, ever pixel row demanda certain readout time.
 
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