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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The PAL problem

Alex Lubensky said:
I'm pretty certain it's a marketing limitation, not hardware related one.

From the day 1 Red introduced Scarlet - it's a "Canon" marketing strategy - cripple the camera in a way it can not compete with another one, still giving basic performance. Scarlet MX only differs by the amount of RAM chips on board - on EPIC the amount is twice as much. That's it, no lacking performance sensors, nothing in real. Same camera, and have always been. The trick with Scarlet W > Dragon X only proves it, same sensor with hardware limitation built in on purpose.
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That only makes half sense. As Epic, and top of the line red cameras has always hd a max limit not that could not be cut in fractions of 25. Epic 5k maxed out at 96 fps or such, dont remember.

But yes the x was limited to have a better price spread between cameras. But when others started to sell 6k for a lot less Red had to pull the plug. Im sure if it was posdible they would alow 6k 50p on komodo.
 
Björn Benckert said:
That only makes half sense. As Epic, and top of the line red cameras has always hd a max limit not that could not be cut in fractions of 25. Epic 5k maxed out at 96 fps or such, dont remember.

But yes the x was limited to have a better price spread between cameras. But when others started to sell 6k for a lot less Red had to pull the plug. Im sure if it was posdible they would alow 6k 50p on komodo.
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Red def. relies on 24fps timebase as "default". What I'm speaking is - it's not about hardware. I bet 2fps could be maxed out of even Scarlet MX for PAL, and in case of Komodo - sure.
 
Bastien Tribalat said:
Well, I hear you (coming from a "pal country") but you have to take into account that RED is making CINEMA cameras. You can use them for anything you want BUT they are tailored for cinema/fiction/commercials and in those industry you either shoot for screenings in theater (24fps or 48fps if HFR cinema is still a thing) or for HD/UHD TV (23.976 or 29.967 fps in NTSC countries and 25fps in PAL regions). Plus, with the change from DWT to DCT compression on Redcode because of how small the camera is I'm pretty sure if they could have done 50fps at 6K, they would have but it's a technical limitation (and again, since the camera is made primarly for use on features and TV series that's ok).

Maybe in the future they can put the 5K@50fps via firmware update but for the moment you would have to settle for 50fps at a m4/3-ish crop at 4K on Komodo.
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I'm not sure RED makes cameras just for cinema - and commercials often end up on television?
As an aside, the BBC accepts delivery at 25 or 50fps.
 
Epic did 96 fps full sensor, It had 4 cpus inside scarlet mx had 2 cpus and did half. I think if epic could have made 100 fps then red would have done it that way. As most of the world actually lives in 50hz.

I would giess its not red but the limit is allready set by the sensor manufacturer. Alot of computer stuff is built around 60hz instead of 50hz like computer screens etc. So a wild guess is that there is bits and bobbs inside the camera that needs to run at a rate in fractions of 60.
 
Given that 24fps is kind of the default fps speed for many cameras, what if you just shot at 25fps and used that as your base speed in 25Hz countries (like Europe, Asia, Africa, and so on)? 25fps is a widely-accepted workflow that goes very smoothly in post.
 
Marc Wielage said:
Given that 24fps is kind of the default fps speed for many cameras, what if you just shot at 25fps and used that as your base speed in 25Hz countries (like Europe, Asia, Africa, and so on)? 25fps is a widely-accepted workflow that goes very smoothly in post.
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Marc, shooting 25fps is the standard for television in 50Hz countries. We would only shoot 24fps if the project was also going to cinema.
 
Marc Wielage said:
Given that 24fps is kind of the default fps speed for many cameras, what if you just shot at 25fps and used that as your base speed in 25Hz countries (like Europe, Asia, Africa, and so on)? 25fps is a widely-accepted workflow that goes very smoothly in post.
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This is exactly why the entire PAL region of the world gets missed when cameras are designed in NTSC regions. PAL means that the timebase is always 25fps and that lights are at 50 Hz. We need 25 fps and 50 fps because that is our standard, nothing else.

So we essentially can't use Komodo in 5K at 48 fps because of this standard. It can't be used for slomo in practical light situations or for any kind of HDRx feature if added to the camera. So the only option for us is to lower resolution and get a zoomed-in image with worse supersampling in order to just meet this basic standard.

This is why this is a problem and why I urge Red to fix these 2 lacking frames in 5K mode. Because these 2 frames create a ton of problems that just feels so unnecessary.
 
Christopher, maybe you already know this, but Komodo 6K 2.4:1 shoots 49.95 FPS. It is obviously not 5K full frame, but pretty close.

Frame comparison using Phil's Format Compare tool:
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare...&modelB=Komodo+6K&formatB=5K+FF&focalLengths=

Given the fact that this is possible, it possible to me that 5K will get it added. The 5K is a fuzz taller. Obviously the 6K WS is much wider... so there are more pixels but they are horizontal. So if there is some issue with horizontal resolution versus vertical that affects frame rate, then maybe that is the issue.
 
Andy Roberts said:
Christopher, maybe you already know this, but Komodo 6K 2.4:1 shoots 49.95 FPS. It is obviously not 5K full frame, but pretty close.

Frame comparison using Phil's Format Compare tool:
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare...&modelB=Komodo+6K&formatB=5K+FF&focalLengths=

Given the fact that this is possible, it possible to me that 5K will get it added. The 5K is a fuzz taller. Obviously the 6K WS is much wider... so there are more pixels but they are horizontal. So if there is some issue with horizontal resolution versus vertical that affects frame rate, then maybe that is the issue.
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Frame rates usually has to do with vertical pixels, but since this is a global shutter, there has to be some other measurement for frame rate limits.

If there is no way to get 5K to 50 fps, at least create a resolution choice where it perfectly hits 50 fps. If that special resolution is 4.7K or something, then that is at least better for a slomo and supersampling sweet spot. Rather than having to lower things to 4K.

I hope Red and Jarred is reading this thread because lots more than me seem to agree with the 50 fps importance. It’s much more important than the 96 fps limit back on the Epic, since 50 fps works as a standard.
 
But Christoffer, For what productions would you roll with 50p as project framerate. I worked on well over 7000 productions in europe, so far I have not worked on a 50p one. And for slomo you can alter the shutter speed to get around the hz issues.

Sure its nice to roll 50fps and know that you can use ever second frame to get away from the slomo if a edit decision is made that ask for real time. But also then, converting 24p to 25p timebase is not really an issue. Its done on pretty much every feature film shown on tv. Just stretch the sound and nobody will notice a thing.

Not saying 50p is not a nice thing to have but as I see it its tons of ways to work around it.
 
Björn Benckert said:
But Christoffer, For what productions would you roll with 50p as project framerate.
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It's for the convenience of production, not timebase. If you are working fast, switching between framerates, you will want to have something that in post you realize flickers the lights.
And then, if HDRx is ever implemented to this camera, it's not gonna happen that 25 fps projects can use this and managing and keeping track of shots that needs to be converted from 24 to 25 fps is fine in theory, but in practice it never works. Just getting colorists to handle HDRx material that's being marked when shooting is a hassle.

It's just unnecessary to have a camera 2 frames off in PAL regions. As I mentioned, why not have 6K 40 fps, 5K 50 fps and 4K 60 fps. Makes more sense over regional differences. Why having to fix things when there can be a perfectly balanced option directly in-camera? I rather shoot with a 4.7 or 4.8K mode with 50 fps than 5K 48 fps having to convert everything while shooting. If you ever shot anything that needs fast changes during the shoot, you know how often problems occur that can ruin shots. Minimizing these is the best route in my opinion. Especially if you have a mix of different levels of experienced people on location. Sometimes when I direct something, I have to explain things to people who should be the ones explaining to me, just because unnecessarily complex stuff exists because they were designed like that in the first place.

If there's no way to reach 5K 50 fps, I think a special shooting resolution for 50 fps is a good option. At least having that option would make life easier and I don't think that's a huge demand for upcoming firmware changes.
 
Easiest solution would be to shoot 6K WS and crop the edges. Then you get 50fps at almost identical vertical resolution, and bonus overscan left and right ;)

Vertical scan height is historically the limiting factor for frame rate. 6K 40 / 5k 48 tallies with this. 6KWS is a scant 100 pixels less height than 5K.
 
Bastien Tribalat said:
Well, I hear you (coming from a "pal country") but you have to take into account that RED is making CINEMA cameras. You can use them for anything you want BUT they are tailored for cinema/fiction/commercials and in those industry you either shoot for screenings in theater (24fps or 48fps if HFR cinema is still a thing) or for HD/UHD TV (23.976 or 29.967 fps in NTSC countries and 25fps in PAL regions). Plus, with the change from DWT to DCT compression on Redcode because of how small the camera is I'm pretty sure if they could have done 50fps at 6K, they would have but it's a technical limitation (and again, since the camera is made primarly for use on features and TV series that's ok).

Maybe in the future they can put the 5K@50fps via firmware update but for the moment you would have to settle for 50fps at a m4/3-ish crop at 4K on Komodo.
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OMG...you deserve 2 Komodos now. i am amazed by your silly response here. 50P is essential for PAL Video Production full stop. So stop Sugarcoating all the time.
 
William Long said:
It's all about convenience, there are always work-arounds, but the real wish here is to hear somebody with the relevant expertise from RED chime-in?

Those two frames mightn't be so easy to implement - fair enough - but it would be good to know why?
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Try to explain it to most of the Producers out there....all cameras should be 50/60P.
 
William Long said:
It's all about convenience, there are always work-arounds,
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This has always been the case, that camera and sensor design make US / Japanese centric decisions based on domestic power. Sony and Panasonic / Canon seem to be the same. Panasonic would often take 18 months to release the 50Hz version of a high end camera in Australia...

Literally the rest of the world wants something else, and the users in those 60Hz markets always seem to not really understand why we’re all agitated.

Let’s flip it. I wonder if one COULDN’T have 48, and it only went to 46 would you 60Hz users be happy “working around” that ?

JB
 
It was the same with the Scarlet-X/Scarlet-Dragon... And they never got the two extra frames.

Fortunately, when you set the timebase to 25fps, you can still use 48fps to slowdown to a ~52% playback speed.
 
William Long said:
It's all about convenience, there are always work-arounds, but the real wish here is to hear somebody with the relevant expertise from RED chime-in?

Those two frames mightn't be so easy to implement - fair enough - but it would be good to know why?
Click to expand...

And even if they're not easy to implement due to hardware limitations or whatnot, the ability to have a resolution maximization for 2:1 or 16:9 50 fps, and for 48 fps PAL based shutter sync as a fast option in-camera would be such a small effort in order to make things easier for PAL based people.

If 2 frames extra in 5K mode is impossible, let at least the workarounds be a flip away.
 
It's kind how our NTSC friends keep offering workarounds but that is not really the question that is being asked.

If you have a 24fps based production and need to increase the frame rate for a simple shot to more or less double.
In most cases, would you prefer to use 46 or 48 ? I would 'guess' a straight line.

We (the 25fps PAL community) would like to understand what prevents having those two extra frames that would take us to 50 ?

Is it an enormous technical problem ?
Too costly?
Political (60 vs 50) ?
Camera manufacturers hate PAL and are just lazy ?! :))


As 'Kipper' John mentions above; maybe the vertical scan height is the limiting factor for frame rate.
Whatever it is, it would be good to know ?

Are there any RED technicians or other experts out there willing to throw a little light on the subject ?
Or just fix it !
 
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