The Oct 29th cut-off

[Steven Caesare]

I have to play the devil's advocate for a minute here.....

Peter sort of has a point when he mentions trustafarians. The lack of very basic, fundamental filmmaking knowledge some Red users display on this board is quite astounding. The real question is: why should that bother anyone? It doesn't bother me at all but it's still quite astounding.

There are a lot of people who see R1 purchase as a way of buying their way into the film industry. The only damaging effect of this is that these people often undercut established industry rates in order to make their way into the business. That sucks for a lot of us but I don't doubt that the real talent and skill will eventually prevail.

Also, I personally don't understand the whole elitist brouhaha about the serial numbers and your place in line. Why would anyone prefer to pay more for an OLDER camera that's already been through hell? Who cares what serial number or finish/color your Epic is? (Well, I know who but I don't understand why.)

R1 still has plenty of working life and value in it and I'm looking forward to shooting many more projects with it before switching to E-X.

Cheers,

Milan (patiently waiting at the back of the line - Stage 3).

Do you have anything to indicate this isn't true of all expensive high cool-quoient items (including cameras?).

Perhaps 5-10% of Red owners don't really know whta they are doing, and yet can afford the cool toy. Based on the number of news stories we see about Ferraris wrapped around telephone poles (see http://wreckedexotics.com), I'd guess this this isn't so much a Red phenomenon as a human one.

It's the characterization that the ~7000 people who bought in to the Red program thus far are rich kids getting a reward that I find out of line. And he re-iterated it in a later post.

-sc

 

[Stephen Strangways]

The complaints here, and in most of the other threads where people are complaining about the announcement, I am seeing a common thread. I will sum up how I see it as follows:

People and companies who bought a RED ONE to use it, and did, who are now getting full trade in value for the new camera, along with a bunch of free modules to help make up for the gear they bought that will only worth with the ONE and will therefore be obsolete: they are happy, but largely quiet about it.

People who we were waiting around in hopes of buying a RED ONE at the very last second just to trade it in for an EPIC: are now complaining they woulda coulda shoulda bought it before the 30th if they'd known they'd get a bunch of "freebie" modules they are jealous of existing owners receiving: they are the ones complaining on REDuser.

RED is doing something amazingly generous that no other company like them has ever done, and I truly hope that all this complaining doesn't make them regret it.

People are also complaining about changing specs, delivery dates, and prices. Well, that's what happens with designing a camera, and we are lucky enough that RED is doing it out in the open in front of us, so we can give them feedback to help them shape the product into exactly what we want.

The alternative is that it is done secretly in house like every other company, and we hear and see nothing, or we read rumors sites with specs and photos that are possibly correct, or possibly complete fabrications and Photoshop fakes.
We then find out the truth a week or two before the camera is released, and have to decide it we are going to commit to buying something the manufacturer most certainly will not give a full trade-in credit for, without the faintest hint of what the next product will do, or when it will be out.

I really prefer RED's way of doing things, and hope they don't come to regret it. If I wanted them do be like the other companies, I'd probably stop hanging around REDuser and just read engadget and gizmodo for their occasional stories on what RED has announced.

 

[Peter Matthes]

He is probably referring to those posts:

http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=495437&postcount=174
http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=495478&postcount=176

Posted by Jannard
"Oct. 30th is not the cutoff date to buy a RED ONE. That wouldn't be fair. RED ONE owners will have priority over non-RED ONE owners for priority."

Thank you for finding this, Oliver.

I am sure it was miscommunication ... a misunderstanding ... and certainly a mistake on my part ... but this was one of the posts that seriously threw me off.

Regardless ... what's done is done.

 

[Peter Matthes]

It's the characterization that the ~7000 people who bought in to the Red program thus far are rich kids getting a reward that I find out of line. And he re-iterated it in a later post.

-sc

This is complete BS, Steven.

Please show me where I (twice) characterized the 7000 who bought into the RED program thus far as rich kids.

 

[Steven Caesare]

This is complete BS, Steven.

Please show me where I (twice) characterized the 7000 who bought into the RED program thus far as rich kids.

If it wasn't a a significant enough issue in your mind to be a factor, then you argument is specious and there whould have been no reason to call anybody a trust funder or rich kid, as it lends no weight to your argument.

If you really DO feel that a significant of Red One owners are such, then unless you have some evidence to draw that conclusion, it's insulting.

-sc

 

[Peter Matthes]

If it wasn't a a significant enough issue in your mind to be a factor, then you argument is specious and there whould have been no reason to call anybody a trust funder or rich kid, as it lends no weight to your argument.

If you really DO feel that a significant of Red One owners are such, then unless you have some evidence to draw that conclusion, it's insulting.

-sc

I do think it is a significant factor, but not a generalized label of the whole group as your completely unsupported accusation clearly implies.

Not only did I NOT generalize, as you accuse me of doing, but I clearly stated that the vast majority of RED ONE owners are "hard working" and highly deserving.

Do you read the whole posts, or do you just pick and choose things?

Jesus ... am I the only one that thinks that this horse has been beaten to death twice over?

 

[Mike Smith]

I do think it is a significant factor, but not a generalized label of the whole group as your completely unsupported accusation clearly implies.

Not only did I NOT generalize, as you accuse me of doing, but I clearly stated that the vast majority of RED ONE owners are "hard working" and highly deserving.

Do you read the whole posts, or do you just pick and choose things?

Jesus ... am I the only one that thinks that this horse has been beaten to death twice over?

T'was your horse Peter. You could have just stuck to the point about your confusion over the cut-off date. But you went on a tirade on how spoiled little rich kids are ruining your life. Now you are annoyed when others take you to task on your views. You can't have it both ways. If you bring it up you have to expect return viewpoints.

So... you talk about 6 people you know that own Red Ones that you believe never leave their boxes. So what? What does it matter if they buy one and bury it in a time capsule? It has absolutely no effect whatsoever on your ability to own one. Except... if it weren't for these spoiled rich kids... if only a few dozen "real" filmmakers (Scorcese, Cameron et al) were ever to buy Red Ones... they would be custom made and cost well into the $100k's rather than a few $10k's. So, far from spoiled little rich kids being your nemesis, they are subsidizing your calling, making it vastly more affordable for you and all of us.

Do you begrudge Jim Jannard his Porsches just because he isn't a professional race driver? If not, why not? It's the exact same argument. Except of course you may have no skin in the motor racing game.

It's that topic that has a lot of hackles raised, not your original cut-off date point. There, I could see why you may have been confused. The rich kids argument makes you seem like a grumpy and unreasonable man. Which is a shame, as I think from the way you present yourself generally, you'd be a great addition to this forum.

 

[Michael Neborak]

Jesus ... am I the only one that thinks that this horse has been beaten to death twice over?

What did you expect when you posted on the companies own forum? :shocked: Many people feel that they have worked hard for what they have, and it is true. Jim had to give some kind of benefits to first supporters... think of it as a gamble or as a kinda of stock market... those with an investment in such can lose everything they invested just as they can gain much more than they originally put in. Jim is just slightly mimicking that by rewarding faithful customers and trying to be the better company in terms of customer service. Many people feel that way, and I've learned to do the same... I too was blasted when I tried to voice my opinion about a personal and specific incident that happened between me and Red (from Red itself and from Redusers). But thats just life. We have to get over it and look to the future and see what great things Red is doing. All that it requires of us is some money and patience.

 

[jimhare]

Well said Stephen.

And Peter, thanks for clarifying your point. So what you're saying is that if you knew the deal, you may have bought a second hand Red to use as a trade in?

I certainly see this in a much more favorable light than getting a new one from Red, only to sell it back to them at full price in 4 months.

This is what I found the most frustrating about some attitudes towards the program. My belief is that is taking unfair advantage of Red.

Maybe you can find an R1 owner who wants to keep their camera and you can buy their early Epic when they receive it.

Would still potentially be seen as cutting in line by some, but at least it doesn't create yet another returned Red One.

Anyway, we should probably all leave it there.

Cheers,

Jim

The complaints here, and in most of the other threads where people are complaining about the announcement, I am seeing a common thread. I will sum up how I see it as follows:

People and companies who bought a RED ONE to use it, and did, who are now getting full trade in value for the new camera, along with a bunch of free modules to help make up for the gear they bought that will only worth with the ONE and will therefore be obsolete: they are happy, but largely quiet about it.

People who we were waiting around in hopes of buying a RED ONE at the very last second just to trade it in for an EPIC: are now complaining they woulda coulda shoulda bought it before the 30th if they'd known they'd get a bunch of "freebie" modules they are jealous of existing owners receiving: they are the ones complaining on REDuser.

RED is doing something amazingly generous that no other company like them has ever done, and I truly hope that all this complaining doesn't make them regret it.

People are also complaining about changing specs, delivery dates, and prices. Well, that's what happens with designing a camera, and we are lucky enough that RED is doing it out in the open in front of us, so we can give them feedback to help them shape the product into exactly what we want.

The alternative is that it is done secretly in house like every other company, and we hear and see nothing, or we read rumors sites with specs and photos that are possibly correct, or possibly complete fabrications and Photoshop fakes.
We then find out the truth a week or two before the camera is released, and have to decide it we are going to commit to buying something the manufacturer most certainly will not give a full trade-in credit for, without the faintest hint of what the next product will do, or when it will be out.

I really prefer RED's way of doing things, and hope they don't come to regret it. If I wanted them do be like the other companies, I'd probably stop hanging around REDuser and just read engadget and gizmodo for their occasional stories on what RED has announced.

 

[Peter Matthes]

Anyway, we should probably all leave it there.

Jim

Agreed.

Something tells me this is how my shipping box will look like when I do buy an Epic.

 

[jimhare]

:laugh: LOL! No, you're Epic will arrive safe and sound.

And you know what? It will change your life forever! Certainly did mine.

Cheers,

Jim

Agreed.

Something tells me this is how my shipping box will look like when I do buy an Epic.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Agreed.

Something tells me this is how my shipping box will look like when I do buy an Epic.

LOL

 

[Ketch Rossi]

If I was receiving an Epic, I would not worry, not even if the shipping box looked like that!

Especially knowing from experience of having opened about twenty or so RED shipped boxes, this guys really do Pack the S%$%#$!!! OUT of the STUFF, I have so much Butcher Paper to start my own Meat Buysiness, now I'm LMAORL

 

[Kevin Olsen]

Agreed.

Something tells me this is how my shipping box will look like when I do buy an Epic.

just don't ship with UPS if you actually want your stuff to get their safe.

Everything sent UPS is subject to a 6 foot drop; this is in their disclaimer.

Just my advice.

KO

 

[Antony M]

:laugh: LOL! No, you're Epic will arrive safe and sound.

And you know what? It will change your life forever! Certainly did mine.

Cheers,

Jim

You have an Epic?
It changed your life?
How did you do that? Time travel ????

 

[Joe D'Arcy]

Posted by Jannard
"Oct. 30th is not the cutoff date to buy a RED ONE. That wouldn't be fair. RED ONE owners will have priority over non-RED ONE owners for priority."

Thank you for finding this, Oliver.

I am sure it was miscommunication ... a misunderstanding ... and certainly a mistake on my part ... but this was one of the posts that seriously threw me off.

Regardless ... what's done is done.

That's right. Twelve pages on. Yes you can still buy a RED ONE after Oct 30th.
That is what Jim's post states.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

That's right. Twelve pages on. Yes you can still buy a RED ONE after Oct 30th.
That is what Jim's post states.

Even better you can still buy one and get full trade-in value... wow what a great deal.

 

[Milan Spasic]

His point was that he claims Red said the opposite to what most of us remember about the Oct 29th cut-off but he has not yet proved his point with links.
Now who's being elitist? Not everyone on Reduser is a professional filmmaker. Some folks come here to learn in a (usually) welcoming environment where folks happily share their knowledge. Besides, even the very experienced are learning all the time. At least the good ones. Like learning to shoot digitally with Red for example. Even the very experienced filmmaker may have known nothing of digital filmmaking before wanting to "dip a toe". Only an "elitist" that was "protecting their turf" would look down on anyone wishing to learn.
You're joking here, right?

Hang on, young grasshopper. You've got it all wrong. All I said is that spending $50k on a camera and not knowing the basics is pretty bizarre. I certainly have no problem sharing the knowledge on this here bulletin board and don't feel threatened by anyone. But there are better (cheaper) ways to learn the basic relationship between aperture, focal length and shutter speed than buying a Red One. It's nothing to do with knowing digital filmmaking it's just to do with knowing filmmaking.

And rate undercutting is not serving anybody any good, including the under-cutter himself.

Secondly, no I'm not joking. I don't see how would a #33 serve you better than a #6783. :beer:

 

[Mike Smith]

Hang on, young grasshopper. You've got it all wrong.

Ha ha! You crack me up! Young grasshopper. I wish! ;-)

All I said is that spending $50k on a camera and not knowing the basics is pretty bizarre.

Well that's not exactly what you said...

The lack of very basic, fundamental filmmaking knowledge some Red users display on this board is quite astounding.

...so that could mean anyone on Reduser and not just those who spent $50k on a camera. But I'm happy to hear you're not one of those protecting his turf and are willing to help those on this forum looking to acquire knowledge.

And rate undercutting is not serving anybody any good, including the under-cutter himself.

As a Red owner myself, I sympathize with your viewpoint. Unfortunately, economics and R1 availability dictate rates. It would be nice if they could remain stable but that is unlikely to be so.

Secondly, no I'm not joking. I don't see how would a #33 serve you better than a #6783. :beer:

How about being 6750 places in front in the Epic upgrade lines for one reason. Just as R1, Epic will demand a premium for the early owners. That premium will dissipate over the months as Epic becomes more available just as it did with R1.

Then there's the original revenue generation with the R1 in the first place for those 6750 places ahead in line.

But you are right in that you still have a great camera with #6783 and I wish you every great success with it.

Cheers - Mike.

 

[paulherrin]

My point is this: If I buy an early serial number Red, a pre-owned model, even if I've never owned one before, do I get that serial number's spot in line when it comes to upgrading?

Got it. Thanks, Jim.

Yes you do... but you need to register with us, pay the transfer fee and make sure the previous owner has not voided the warranty.

Jim

so buy One now...