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The Gentleman's Underwater Bubble Blower Thread
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C.H.Haskell
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That is one slick looking rig tom, when can i test drive her?
Johnny show us the goods!
My next film project involves flooding a small chamber, hoping my epic will have grown a pair of wings in the next 6 weeks.
Detlev Eller
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Tom Hamilton
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Hey Clay, long time since we spoke, sounds like you're doing well!
Busy in the eastern Pacific and South America over the next couple of months, but will be through New York several times, let me know if I can assist, happy to show you the rig.
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Rudi Herbert
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No, issue has not been solved, in fact, after testing the last batch of filters, I can confidently say we are back where we started many months ago. If it sounds like I am frustrated is because I am. As I was telling somebody else earlier, it will be really difficult to make the decision to upgrade to Dragon without having a solution for the MX at hand. Dragon might behave differently underwater, and Johnny may have a clue, but none of the people involved in the testing for a solution have had the chance to test Dragon, even though we have requested one several times. At any rate, even if Dragon proves to be better underwater, there are still thousands of MX sensors out there, and a couple of hundreds of those that are still dedicated to underwater use, which will continue to deliver varying degrees of awful footage. But hey, good for Johnny, he should have an idea about differences between Dragon and MX by now, and I'm sure he will share his findings as soon as he can. On the other hand, it would be really discouraging if the only solution were to upgrade to Dragon.
paulherrin
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well, rudi, if it's a color science thing, i'd assume dragon would take priority... you make it sound as if you can't get good results with a red underwater. that's totally contrary to just about everything i've seen. send me an email/pm with r3d's cause i'm really curious as to what the extent of this problem is.
Will Keir
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Pawel said he has the solution to the magenta issue shooting Epic Underwater. His shots of the whale looks pretty. Perhaps if Jarred and Pawel could find a way to work together for the best solution to benefit us all.... bygones be bygones?
Johnny Friday
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Greetings fellow Bubble users:
Yes, Bob Cranston and i had a good go of the new Dragon Cameras last week at Catalina with two of RED's Camera Tech's Sean Rugerri and Justin Jones who both travel around the planet on red shoots to trouble shoot and add expertise to the RED camera workflow. They were also shooting their own RED piece (more on that at a later time) which is to include some of the footage i had shot underwater. Our original trip was to acquire more 3d footage underwater, but i was then took the Dragon out every dive to shoot it under a wide variety of what i would call challenging situations. The only situation which we could not reproduce was clean and clear tropical waters. However, based on the results of what i shot and then was able to work with in post, both myself and Bob Cranston are far more than marginally impressed. In fact, shooting RAW and redcode 3 / redgamma 3 produces visibly more...how do i put it....just plain better looking images right out of the gate. In fact, in post, I found (so far) i have better results working from RC3 & RG3 where in the past i liked the more contrasted images of RC & RG. I cannot post any images until i have been given the all clear, but if you were to take it on faith---and I would NOT take it on faith---but if you were, you will be very impressed with what we get out of the dragon. Here is what comes to mind immediately:
Immediate Impressions:
1. Improved overall look of images in RAW format (what we hear as the improved color science)--this is #1 most impressive result noticed
2. Highlight to Shadow protection: basically an impressive dynamic range from shooting in shallow water with wide lens to shoot sunlight at surface to sea-floor and not blow out the highlights nor loose data in the shadows. Of course there was a slight bit of post manipulation on this type image as expected, but now with this new sensor there is a far better range of latitude before the image breaks apart.
3. Much better ISO range. I shot up to 3200 ISO at night to see what the image looked like and was not unhappy at all and would be comfortable stretching to 3200 when i need the extra room for fstop. 2000 was a no brainer....2000 could be used like 800 on the Epic MX sensor....again, allowing us to grab an extra bit of stop from iris for more depth of field.
4. the MAGENTA ISSUE. Immediately i noticed in post that the magenta issue is definitely not as obvious. What i mean to say is that if i were to take a frame grab from my Epic MX under the same conditions, then go into Photoshop and apply more red or magenta--the image would quickly blow out to Magenta in the blue channel or blue background. But not so on the new Dragon---or rather not NEARLY as much. It is there, but only to a very marginal degree that the MX sensor seems to display. I think there is a big breakthrough on this front. HOWEVER, we were not tropical waters where this magenta issue is a real killer. Further testing should be done in those waters. But regardless of the waters, under heavy post, the Magenta cast issue comes up even here in California, but just not to the degree it does in tropics. We had little to no magenta issues at all on this shoot as compared to MX sensor. This does not mean it's gone, but i can say, it's a big improvement.
5. All around cleaner, sharper, more contrasty and colorful looking image. One that is just truly impressive compared to MX sensor. I was working on some grab frames past two days and found myself telling someone that i felt i wanted to work the images more, but could not find anything more to tinker with in Photoshop. But that was because i was so used to working a variety of effects and color/hue settings within Photoshop with the MX sensor. Not so much with Dragon frame grabs.
GRAB FRAMES: Can't post anything until i am given ok by RED. I'd be happy to post R3d grabs or Tiffs when RED gives ok so guys like Rudi and Paul can ingest and work them. I even have MX grabs from 3 weeks ago for some side by side testing.
Yes, Bob Cranston and i had a good go of the new Dragon Cameras last week at Catalina with two of RED's Camera Tech's Sean Rugerri and Justin Jones who both travel around the planet on red shoots to trouble shoot and add expertise to the RED camera workflow. They were also shooting their own RED piece (more on that at a later time) which is to include some of the footage i had shot underwater. Our original trip was to acquire more 3d footage underwater, but i was then took the Dragon out every dive to shoot it under a wide variety of what i would call challenging situations. The only situation which we could not reproduce was clean and clear tropical waters. However, based on the results of what i shot and then was able to work with in post, both myself and Bob Cranston are far more than marginally impressed. In fact, shooting RAW and redcode 3 / redgamma 3 produces visibly more...how do i put it....just plain better looking images right out of the gate. In fact, in post, I found (so far) i have better results working from RC3 & RG3 where in the past i liked the more contrasted images of RC & RG. I cannot post any images until i have been given the all clear, but if you were to take it on faith---and I would NOT take it on faith---but if you were, you will be very impressed with what we get out of the dragon. Here is what comes to mind immediately:
Immediate Impressions:
1. Improved overall look of images in RAW format (what we hear as the improved color science)--this is #1 most impressive result noticed
2. Highlight to Shadow protection: basically an impressive dynamic range from shooting in shallow water with wide lens to shoot sunlight at surface to sea-floor and not blow out the highlights nor loose data in the shadows. Of course there was a slight bit of post manipulation on this type image as expected, but now with this new sensor there is a far better range of latitude before the image breaks apart.
3. Much better ISO range. I shot up to 3200 ISO at night to see what the image looked like and was not unhappy at all and would be comfortable stretching to 3200 when i need the extra room for fstop. 2000 was a no brainer....2000 could be used like 800 on the Epic MX sensor....again, allowing us to grab an extra bit of stop from iris for more depth of field.
4. the MAGENTA ISSUE. Immediately i noticed in post that the magenta issue is definitely not as obvious. What i mean to say is that if i were to take a frame grab from my Epic MX under the same conditions, then go into Photoshop and apply more red or magenta--the image would quickly blow out to Magenta in the blue channel or blue background. But not so on the new Dragon---or rather not NEARLY as much. It is there, but only to a very marginal degree that the MX sensor seems to display. I think there is a big breakthrough on this front. HOWEVER, we were not tropical waters where this magenta issue is a real killer. Further testing should be done in those waters. But regardless of the waters, under heavy post, the Magenta cast issue comes up even here in California, but just not to the degree it does in tropics. We had little to no magenta issues at all on this shoot as compared to MX sensor. This does not mean it's gone, but i can say, it's a big improvement.
5. All around cleaner, sharper, more contrasty and colorful looking image. One that is just truly impressive compared to MX sensor. I was working on some grab frames past two days and found myself telling someone that i felt i wanted to work the images more, but could not find anything more to tinker with in Photoshop. But that was because i was so used to working a variety of effects and color/hue settings within Photoshop with the MX sensor. Not so much with Dragon frame grabs.
GRAB FRAMES: Can't post anything until i am given ok by RED. I'd be happy to post R3d grabs or Tiffs when RED gives ok so guys like Rudi and Paul can ingest and work them. I even have MX grabs from 3 weeks ago for some side by side testing.
Jason Sturgis
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Thanks Johnny for that detailed write up. It sounds, by all accounts, that the Dragon is a big improvement over the mX sensor. As you pointed out, no clear tropical waters to test but I am sure that will come. Thanks again for sharing your first experiences on dunking the dragon.
Did you use your sigma 15 for some of the shooting? Also, did you put the original front fan back into the body of the camera? Thanks again!
Did you use your sigma 15 for some of the shooting? Also, did you put the original front fan back into the body of the camera? Thanks again!
Johnny Friday
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HI Jason: got your email:
Here is more on the configurations:
We used RED's Cameras that had the top fans on them. I don't think that they had the front fans. Also i used my Canon Glass: I used my 8-15 fisheye shot at 8mm and 12mm. 8mm gives you a big image circle and good for dome theater. 12.5mm is the cutoff where you get full coverage at 6k full frame with no vignetting. The other Canon lens in my bag is the 17-40 L series full frame lens at F4. It's also an internal zoom....i like that lens a lot and it has 104 degree field of view or thereabouts.
As for the NEW FANS: i have them installed on my Epic MX camera and all is working with no issues. I can install the Canon or Nikon RED mounts with no issues. When using the OptiTek mount, i had to take the RED metal fan cover and mill the top part of it down just a bit so that i had clearance for the RED gear from OptiTek and then Gates now makes a nice little clamp on gear that clamps to the OptiTek Gear and then protrudes forward so that the gears do not interfere with the protruding new front fan and fan housing.
**it seems, that the new fans are necessary or at least should be considered and especially so inside of your housing. The new Dragon runs quite a bit hotter. Sean & Justin at RED had our cameras setup to run on Adaptive mode and holding a temperature of 65 celsius--yes, i said that right 65C. and you can feel the heat pumping off the the top fans. I had one incident where we had rain earlier in the day and the humid air inside my housing heated up due to the temps inside my housing forcing me to abort the dive and go topside and inject dry scuba air into the housing.
Here is more on the configurations:
We used RED's Cameras that had the top fans on them. I don't think that they had the front fans. Also i used my Canon Glass: I used my 8-15 fisheye shot at 8mm and 12mm. 8mm gives you a big image circle and good for dome theater. 12.5mm is the cutoff where you get full coverage at 6k full frame with no vignetting. The other Canon lens in my bag is the 17-40 L series full frame lens at F4. It's also an internal zoom....i like that lens a lot and it has 104 degree field of view or thereabouts.
As for the NEW FANS: i have them installed on my Epic MX camera and all is working with no issues. I can install the Canon or Nikon RED mounts with no issues. When using the OptiTek mount, i had to take the RED metal fan cover and mill the top part of it down just a bit so that i had clearance for the RED gear from OptiTek and then Gates now makes a nice little clamp on gear that clamps to the OptiTek Gear and then protrudes forward so that the gears do not interfere with the protruding new front fan and fan housing.
**it seems, that the new fans are necessary or at least should be considered and especially so inside of your housing. The new Dragon runs quite a bit hotter. Sean & Justin at RED had our cameras setup to run on Adaptive mode and holding a temperature of 65 celsius--yes, i said that right 65C. and you can feel the heat pumping off the the top fans. I had one incident where we had rain earlier in the day and the humid air inside my housing heated up due to the temps inside my housing forcing me to abort the dive and go topside and inject dry scuba air into the housing.
paulherrin
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sounds good, thanks for the update
hope you're having fun out there, can't wait to see
hope you're having fun out there, can't wait to see
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Tom Hamilton
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Yikes! That's 150F, and that's with a thru-the-housing heat-exchange water temp of about 60F in Catalina at the moment. What's the prospect for 100+ topside with water temps in the 90's?
Lithium Ion batteries show an average performance loss rate of 35% when operated at 40C (104F), enclosed inside a housing with that kind of heat, is thermal runaway a possibility?
Johnny Friday
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Well, I'm not sure on most of the math Tom, but i was running Globalmedia 230watt hour batteries and getting ALL DAY burn on them two 2 hour dives and no issues there and time to spare on the batts. Water temp was in the mid to high 50's mind you. No heat issue whatsoever. NOW---you can also set your target temperature with Adaptive mode as well. I no very little about the why, other than hearing that you should set your target Adaptive mode to what you might have done your original blackshading.....I am sure there is more to this and what temperatures you expect to operate under as well, but those were the settings and much seems to have to do with blackshading. I expect you can set your Adaptive temperature less, but have only had minimal use of the camera.
Thermal runaway? Im not familiar with that term, but i suppose it means if it's so damned hot, your batteries will not work so great....That test should come in the Tropics.
**ah: and exothermic reaction usually resulting in an explosion--sounds like a UPS aircraft situation with LiIon batteries in the hold.....none experienced.
Tom Lowe
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Thanks for the info, Johnny.
Will Keir
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Looking forward to the images you'll be sharing in the days to come Johnny, keep up the good work!
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Hey folks, have been silent a looooong time. Getting into fatherhood, off shooting in the jungles of Sumatra and now just finished editing a Pilot for a personal project. This is the first sharing of said pilot given that there are a shed load of guys that I respect here. It would be great to get any feedback on this as it deals with the bane of our chosen working environment, the depletion of the enigmatic species such as sharks and Manta rays. All shot on the islands of Bali and Lombok over the past couple of months. The music was composed and created by Craig Gannon, ex member of The Smiths and ardent conservationist. Craig is onboard for the project if we can get funding, this pilot will be the foundation of a crowdfunding project that will be launched on Indiegogo in a few days. Shot it on 5DMkII's and edited with FCPx with a Motion 5 Template by MotionVFX that I tweaked to fit the project.
Enjoy...
Cheers,
Mark.
Enjoy...
Cheers,
Mark.
paulherrin
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wow, great project, mark. i've said it before... you underwater guys are absolutely the strongest environmentalists and conservationists. apparently i suck at social media, but if there's anything i can do to help you get this thing out feel free to send me a message, my services are at your disposal on this one. and if i can't do anything else i at least encourage you. thanks, from the sharks in the sea at the bottom of my heart
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Mark (or is it Marc now?)
Good stuff. From a technical standpoint, I did notice just a couple of things. Every time your voice over kicks in, a very noticeable amount of microphone noise/hiss becomes audible, which disappears the moment you stop talking, so I would try to make a pass at cleaning that up a bit, or at the very least, evening it out with the music if you can't clean it, leaving some of the hiss over the whole soundtrack. Your voice could be a tad louder, with a tad more bass to it, so as to make it more commanding. It is fine and reflective as it is now, but for a call to action, a tad more volume and bass would go a long way.
Other than that, images are good, so is editing, and the music top notch. You know, this piece left me wanting a bit of a vignette around the edges, to focus more attention to the center of the image, but that might just be me. It is powerful enough as it is.
Good luck, and as before, if you want to place a free benner on UnderwaterCinema.com to promote the project, let me know.
Good stuff. From a technical standpoint, I did notice just a couple of things. Every time your voice over kicks in, a very noticeable amount of microphone noise/hiss becomes audible, which disappears the moment you stop talking, so I would try to make a pass at cleaning that up a bit, or at the very least, evening it out with the music if you can't clean it, leaving some of the hiss over the whole soundtrack. Your voice could be a tad louder, with a tad more bass to it, so as to make it more commanding. It is fine and reflective as it is now, but for a call to action, a tad more volume and bass would go a long way.
Other than that, images are good, so is editing, and the music top notch. You know, this piece left me wanting a bit of a vignette around the edges, to focus more attention to the center of the image, but that might just be me. It is powerful enough as it is.
Good luck, and as before, if you want to place a free benner on UnderwaterCinema.com to promote the project, let me know.
paulherrin
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i think the solution there would be to add in some nat-sound... hard to get rid of noise without garbling the voice (imho), but i'm not an audio guy