The Gentleman's Underwater Bubble Blower Thread

[Will Keir]

I've wanted to make a short film on cave diving based on an old short story I read once. Can you give us an idea how much a well told short would be bought for? If there is a market for short material it might at least pay for the experience and expenses.

Gentlemen,

I am in an interesting position right now where I could become a content aggregator. An aggregator is a provider of content that deals directly with content buyers such as Netflix, Amazon, etc. Those companies deal exclusively with aggregators and not with individuals, which is why is so hard sometimes to sell your stuff unless you are associated with an aggregator. I have just finalized the sale of a few of my materials, new and old, directly to one of the content buyers and they were so happy with the material they suggested I become a purveyor of similar material and present it to them for future acquisitions as an aggregator. It would have to be underwater stuff, short and long form documentaries, single pieces or series, or alternatively it could be environmentally based if not underwater.

My question is, do any of you out there have any material you have made or are working on that you want to sell? I need to test the waters and see if there is enough content to provide as an initial offer to the buyers before I get into this game which requires quite a lot of work on my part. But at the same time, I have a very high profile buyer who has opened their doors to me and would like to take advantage of that opportunity on behalf of other fellow underwater film makers even if I myself have nothing to sell at the moment. I like the idea of a dedicated underwater content provider, but in truth, is there enough material out there?

 

[Will Keir]

Hey might be dipping in but that's because he at least has an interest, which most RU do not. Very few understand. We ALL want a great image acquisition tool for UW work. The more Paul's and the more Rudi's we have, the sooner we'll get there.

"Dipping your nose in way too many places." Isn't that a sign of curiosity, intelligence and raising your post count? :cuss:

Paul,

No offense whatsoever, but you seem to have dipped your nose in way too many places all at once

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Will,

dipping one's nose is fine, curiosity is great, intelligence is rare, and raising post count must be good for something too (though I do not know what). I just meant that if one is going through one of those RU binges, then it behooves that person to inform himself about any particular issue instead of asking to be updated by others who have kept up. Again, nothing wrong, I think it shows respect to regular posters/contributors to read back as much as you can before parachuting down into a thread and asking what's up, simply because in this case, it is a complex issue with a lot of baggage around it, and it isn't easy to sum it up in a few words. But now Paul is, indeed, up to date.

Buying rates for material are one of those things, it can fluctuate a lot depending on the piece, its content, the reputation of the creator and many other factors. When you sell to Netflix for example, they may choose to buy physical copies of the work, actual DVDs or BDs, to rent out, and this can be anywhere from 500 to 10,000 copies with a going rate of between $3 to $10 per copy. But that applies mostly to feature films, TV series and well known documentaries. Most likely, something like what we create would be negotiated for streaming services, where you get paid a flat fee on a yearly basis, which can be anything from $5,000 to $100,000, again, the latter reserved for very well known pieces in high demand (think black fish). The aggregator, the one representing your material (me in this case) usually takes between 10% to 25% of the sale price, so you're left with 75-90% of whatever combination of figures I've just described.

It does not look like a lot of money, and in many cases, you may never recover your costs if the product is a high profile piece, for example, a documentary filmed in the Galapagos where expenses can shoot into the five figures. Some other times things with inauspicious beginnings can have surprisingly long legs and yield a dividend for many years. Among the pieces I just sold, there were three 30 minute shorts produced in 1999 and whose rights had just reverted back to me, and this is the third time I sell them. But in this case, the thing to consider is that you ARE making some money from it rather than having it collecting dust in a hard drive, AND you are putting your name out there as a "published author". I don't have to tell you the leverage you can get from showing your work among the offers on Netflix. Having sold previous work is what has allowed me to get sponsors to pay for subsequent work, so that I could both increase my production value and make real profit from those sales. Right now, I am finishing a 6 episode series that was fully financed by a corporate sponsor, whose rights cover TV and web media in their country, but I keep rights in the US, so a win for both of us.

I realize that most underwater shooters are not like me, where every time I have about 10 minutes worth of footage that can be threaded together, I am already thinking of narration, music and graphics to turn it into a finished piece, where most other people either shoot for hire or for stock sales. The difference between content creation and content acquisition, but for those who'd like to look into content creation, having an aggregator that can evaluate your work and put it for sale is probably the most important thing to have. God knows there are hundreds of excellent documentaries and fiction pieces that have not been seen by anyone other than their creators.

 

[paulherrin]

haha... awkward. i'm of course only posting this because i wanna boost my stats

i think more accurate than 'binging' is that sometimes i'm on an internet/reduser vacation. whenever i happen across an interesting conversation or something i think i can help with, i jump in. whenever i'm in an ongoing discussion, i tend to spend more time on here, which means i happen across more threads, and on it goes...

and let's be reasonable about our expectations, you can't expect everyone (or anyone, honestly) to read 50 pages of thread material over something that can be summarized in a post, which les did justice to with important and accurate details based on his memory that i could then check into more precisely. in library science a major issue is not access but filtration - the remedy is to have 'living libraries' - i.e. the librarian whose memory serves as a quick, accurate, filtration method that directs others towards the information they're looking for. you guys are a tight little group here and you guys have experiences and understandings that none of us can imagine and that's awesome and i would never want to interfere with that as an upsider. at the same time, this is a public forum and there is interest in the underwater world by those just getting into it, trying to get into it, or just appreciating it - so you may want to be prepared to summarize certain topics if possible. some people are more inclined to do that, so it's not every one's responsibility so much as the community.

glad to hear you're thinking about taking a similar role in filtering films, rudi, that's exciting. i would encourage you to contact some of the guys here privately - my feeling is that people are protective about the information they release about personal projects, etc. simply because there is so much dealing involved. i really think you will have to reach out personally to guys working underwater/nat hist/etc. as it happens, i'm making a documentary about the heritage and history of the cherokee around my home, looking at some archaeological excavations, among other things. it's a couple years out as there is a major dig in 2015. will probably do some things on the river, probably not a lot of underwater activity although likely some, especially if i can convince johnny to come for a visit. would always be happy to talk, but i can assume the market will fluctuate by then and i'm not sure it would help anybody to talk about anything before it happens unless you believe in the project and wanna help produce it, i'm still figuring out what it's about and what i'm getting into and what i wanna get. this is new territory...

as they say... a bird in hand's worth two in the bush.

happy chance

 

[Rudi Herbert]

While on the subject of "snapping defeat away from the jaws of victory", and oh what an apt description indeed, here's a link to a promo posted by Pawel from his shoot in Tonga, which it would seem to have been shot while employing his solution to the issue:

http://vimeo.com/76025643

I know it doesn't look like much color rendition and saturation wise, but let's not forget that the waters of Tonga have proven to be one of the worst for the appearance of this issue, and that in fact, footage posted earlier from Jon Shaw after a trip by himself to Tonga looked pretty terrible, and that even stuff posted by Howard Hall has looked equally troubled. So in that sense, this definitely looks better and appears to confirm that, to an acceptable degree of success, Pawel has indeed managed to fix this issue.

 

[paulherrin]

did i just see a whale with one fin? crazy. awesome creatures. everything looks good, but it's definitely color corrected intensively. in a lot of situations underwater you can at least get away with and sometimes need to completely trash your red channel and rebuild it with the help of the others and perhaps some isolations - that's the worst case scenario. of course, that's more than the eye can do and it's something you'd probably rather worry less about to begin with... there are always reasons to get it right in camera.

 

[Will Keir]

Good to know. Thanks for answering the question with at least a range of specific figures. Are any of your projects streaming yet from this source?

Buying rates for material are one of those things, it can fluctuate a lot depending on the piece, its content, the reputation of the creator and many other factors. When you sell to Netflix for example, they may choose to buy physical copies of the work, actual DVDs or BDs, to rent out, and this can be anywhere from 500 to 10,000 copies with a going rate of between $3 to $10 per copy. But that applies mostly to feature films, TV series and well known documentaries. Most likely, something like what we create would be negotiated for streaming services, where you get paid a flat fee on a yearly basis, which can be anything from $5,000 to $100,000, again, the latter reserved for very well known pieces in high demand (think black fish). The aggregator, the one representing your material (me in this case) usually takes between 10% to 25% of the sale price, so you're left with 75-90% of whatever combination of figures I've just described.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Rudi,
I'll vouch for Paul. He's one of the intelligent ones when it comes to color work. I think Paul may add some valuable input if given opportunity. I've sat with him for over a week working on coloring and can say he knows his craft. That said, i also think unless given proper resources and time and $$, it's not something easily accomplished unless one is dedicated to crushing this problem and willing to give it a full time effort.

 

[Will Keir]

I look forward to that day. I'm quite sure you would give a full critique and I have a feeling you wouldn't hold anything back. Step up to the plate and get paid or fail and keep trying, it's all part of the adventure.

At least now I know a final destination, a value and can set a goal. If I can pay for my UW Housing purchase with the creation of a short, I'm game. I'm feeling those creative juices. Wishing everyone good energy and may you all find success, however you may define it.

having an aggregator that can evaluate your work and put it for sale is probably the most important thing to have. God knows there are hundreds of excellent documentaries and fiction pieces that have not been seen by anyone other than their creators.

 

[Will Keir]

Rudi,

That's cool of you to give Pawel some credit. 16 seconds in, those shots are breath taking... beautiful creatures!

Pawel wasn't banned, was he?

While on the subject of "snapping defeat away from the jaws of victory", and oh what an apt description indeed, here's a link to a promo posted by Pawel from his shoot in Tonga, which it would seem to have been shot while employing his solution to the issue:

http://vimeo.com/76025643

I know it doesn't look like much color rendition and saturation wise, but let's not forget that the waters of Tonga have proven to be one of the worst for the appearance of this issue, and that in fact, footage posted earlier from Jon Shaw after a trip by himself to Tonga looked pretty terrible, and that even stuff posted by Howard Hall has looked equally troubled. So in that sense, this definitely looks better and appears to confirm that, to an acceptable degree of success, Pawel has indeed managed to fix this issue.

 

[paulherrin]

Pawel wasn't banned, was he?

yes, and for a lot of good reasons beyond whatever financial/philosophical conflict he had with red.

this thread has gone back to being 1,000 times better. i have nothing against the guy, just his actions on this forum.
maybe he can come back someday if he learns how to play nice with others, but for now he's in time out...

 

[paulherrin]

thanks, johnny

it's probably about time to share some simple magic in a tutorial. i'll add it to the list.
of course nothing beats not having to do 'corrections' in the first place.

the preview (and the end for some folks) of the tutorial is this: open the channel mixer.

haha

 

[Will Keir]

Paul,

I'd love to watch some of your tutorials. Are you primary a colorist?

thanks, johnny

it's probably about time to share some simple magic in a tutorial. i'll add it to the list.
of course nothing beats not having to do 'corrections' in the first place.

the preview (and the end for some folks) of the tutorial is this: open the channel mixer.

haha

 

[paulherrin]

i assume you mean primarily?

rudi's absolutely correct when he suggests i probably poke in too many places. i'm really not primarily anything other than an artist. i was trained as a compositor and animator, still do that stuff, but that's what led me towards coloring cause I was basically doing the same stuff already and nobody taught grading or really knew what they were doing so i started doing looks for my friend's projects without really knowing what i was doing... not really trying to be a full-time colorist at this point, partially because that's a lifetime achievement, but really because i enjoy the other aspects of filmmaking far too much and decided a long time ago i wasn't going to spend my life looking into a box. in fact, i'm outside in the beautiful weather working on an old roof today - love it

i've never done any video tutorials before, so i think i'm going to. the first one i was thinking about was astro-photography shooting>post methods with the red, this other one would be basic underwater tips. they're just on the list, it may be a week or few before i can get around to it. supposed to be finishing a paper for school, don't tell anybody i haven't been working on it

hehe, it's actually a multi-media essay (kinda like a tutorial) on cinematic narrative, so i definitely wanna get that out before i start on these other things.

 

[paulherrin]

cool test video (not mine)

https://vimeo.com/79501155

reposted from: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?108492-Epic-evening-water-test

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Just to calm things down here, three big projects now coming on line, central Pacific, South America, and eventually great hammerheads, I am busier than a one-legged man at a frickin ass-kicking contest. :smile5:

Life is good. Just wanted to extend a heartfelt thanks to Rudi, Johnny, Frazier, Mike, and Hugh, for all of the inspiration and guidance on how to pull this incredible shit off, and still get hired for future projects.

Wil post grabs from the field as they become available, as David Bowie says, this is Ground Control to Major Tom...

 

[Michael Hastings]

Just to calm things down here, three big projects now coming on line, central Pacific, South America, and eventually great hammerheads, I am busier than a one-legged man at a frickin ass-kicking contest. :smile5:

Life is good. Just wanted to extend a heartfelt thanks to Rudi, Johnny, Frazier, Mike, and Hugh, for all of the inspiration and guidance on how to pull this incredible shit off, and still get hired for future projects.

Wil post grabs from the field as they become available, as David Bowie says, this is Ground Control to Major Tom...

congrats on the productions!

... when did you get promoted to Major?

 

[Tom Hamilton]

'This is Ground Control to Private Second Class Tom' is probably more accurate, just doesn't have the same ring to it...

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Well, if David Bowie saw fit to promote himself to major, a man, shall we say, with not much military training or martial bravado, then perhaps it would be ok for Tom to pass by a major too...

 

[Zeb B]

I'm heading to the Bahamas in February for a couple weeks to shoot the Hammers and Tigers. I'll be in Bimini then Freeport. Any recommendations, advice or warnings?

Cheers!