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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The 4K "Apple Problem"

I'm sure Apple could release a 4K TV anytime they want, but looking at Apples track record, they'd want to have a complete business plan to ensure success of the product. Which brings us back to the conundrum of feeding that 4K panel with some 4K content. The logical way is via their iTunes store, but piping 4K to the mass market is still years away because the average internet connection isn't fast enough using present codecs. If I was Apple and wanted to take over the world, I know where I'd be spending my R&D bucks.........on a kickass low bitrate proprietry codec that could stream to the mass market.....sound familiar.
 
Word on the street is that Apple's upcoming TV will be 4K. In fact, it's starting to look very likely that there will be 2, maybe 3, sizes to pick from and one of those sizes will almost certainly be a 65" model. In other words, the rumored sizes and many other speculative factors made about the TV's over the past year or so have been completely wrong. Not surprising. Most of the predictions I've ever seen about the possible Apple televisions have been absolutely counter-intuitive, even to the point of being outright stupid to anyone who follows trends in the HDTV industry. Oh, wait, most of the rumors are based on patent applications and made by so-called "experts" who don't even know what "1080p" actually means... And they're making TV predictions.

If I were placing bets, I would say the sets could arrive later this year or early next year. And the sizes will be a small one between 42" and 50". A medium one at 65" and possibly a big one at 80".

No way they're going to make anything smaller than 42". Consumers won't buy it in quantity and anything smaller may as well just be viewed on an iMac. or any of their other existing products. I'm betting the thing will be entire voice and gesture controlled. If it does come with a remote, it will be what they include with the AppleTV unit now.


As for 4K being years away because of internet bandwidth, nope. Two things happening there... New codecs are providing much more data through the same bandwidth pipes we have now. The other factor is that streaming isn't all that important. Local storage and powerful local processing make for an attractive combo in a delivery platform. It's going to be years, perhaps decades before the internet bandwidth problem solves itself in large markets like North America. Technology companies have to accept that shortcoming or obstacle and work around it. Joe Average doesn't give a crap about streaming unless he's surfing stuff on YouTube that only lasts a minute or two anyway. Joe isn't going to care if he has to queue up a new movie and let it download for 20 minutes or so before it can start playing. Sure, that's inconvenient the first time, but not if he can maintain a locally stored copy. People who care about and want the higher quality will accept the limitations.
 
Rob Anderson said:
[/COLOR]The maximum resolution afforded by Apple is still 2560x1600.

Come on man, Apple's been selling (along with just about every other monitor manufacturer on the planet) 2560x1600 since 2004! The only difference Retina makes is pixel density. We can now stuff that resolution into a 13" monitor (instead of 30). We're still nowhere near 4K with Apple and there's been zero movement in that direction, Retina or not.
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Well how is it that the Apple laptop I am using right now has a 2880 x 1800 resolution? Just under 3k, mind you.

Apple is leading the resolution race. That said, I don't think their first tv will be a 4k one but I believe they will be one of the companies pushing 4k rather than slow it down.
 
Apple has been testing 4K.

Netflix had demoed 4K

DirecTV is testing 4K

Microsoft SilverLight is 4K and 3D capable now -- hence what Netflix is using and demoing with.

YouTube has 4K.

Roku showed a prototype 4K player at CES. They were the only ones other than RED to do so, that I am aware of. REDRAY is said to be ready to ship. RED has an uphill battle for sure. Roku's UHD/4K player will ship later this year, in time for the holidays. So will PlayStation 4. Both will be HEVC capable and ready to spew 4K content for $299 to $399. REDRAY at $1450 is going to be a hard sell unless they're able to pull off some serious mojo with the content and distribution network. You can talk image quality all day, fact still remains that both PlayStation and Roku already have huge established markets and known presence. H.265 is almost here and the internet buzz about it is huge -- people think it's going to do everything short of cure cancer and colonize Mars. RED is gonna have to come out of the gate swinging and ready to hit the ground running mach 10. Just sayin...
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Apple has been testing 4K.

Netflix had demoed 4K

DirecTV is testing 4K

Microsoft SilverLight is 4K and 3D capable now -- hence what Netflix is using and demoing with.

YouTube has 4K.

Roku showed a prototype 4K player at CES. They were the only ones other than RED to do so, that I am aware of. REDRAY is said to be ready to ship. RED has an uphill battle for sure. Roku's UHD/4K player will ship later this year, in time for the holidays. So will PlayStation 4. Both will be HEVC capable and ready to spew 4K content for $299 to $399. REDRAY at $1450 is going to be a hard sell unless they're able to pull off some serious mojo with the content and distribution network. You can talk image quality all day, fact still remains that both PlayStation and Roku already have huge established markets and known presence. H.265 is almost here and the internet buzz about it is huge -- people think it's going to do everything short of cure cancer and colonize Mars. RED is gonna have to come out of the gate swinging and ready to hit the ground running mach 10. Just sayin...
Click to expand...

Agreed with all...

Unless RED is going to focus solely on the "pro" market, but that's gonna be a hard sell...
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Apple has been testing 4K.

Netflix had demoed 4K

DirecTV is testing 4K

Microsoft SilverLight is 4K and 3D capable now -- hence what Netflix is using and demoing with.

YouTube has 4K.

Roku showed a prototype 4K player at CES. They were the only ones other than RED to do so, that I am aware of. REDRAY is said to be ready to ship. RED has an uphill battle for sure. Roku's UHD/4K player will ship later this year, in time for the holidays. So will PlayStation 4. Both will be HEVC capable and ready to spew 4K content for $299 to $399. REDRAY at $1450 is going to be a hard sell unless they're able to pull off some serious mojo with the content and distribution network. You can talk image quality all day, fact still remains that both PlayStation and Roku already have huge established markets and known presence. H.265 is almost here and the internet buzz about it is huge -- people think it's going to do everything short of cure cancer and colonize Mars. RED is gonna have to come out of the gate swinging and ready to hit the ground running mach 10. Just sayin...
Click to expand...

I thought youtube did not have 4k any more, no?
 
My hope/prediction with the Apple TV is that they will indeed release a 4k model, along with a 1080p model in their first generation TVs. In the end, we have to remember that Jobs wasn't waiting for the quality of the display to improve to try and release a tv system, but rather the functionality. Something that would give consumers to watch what they want, when they want. So to think that Apple's main vision is, or should be the quality of the display is flawed. Apple is being pushed by the market to release a new product sometime soon, and the TV is the rumored new product. Since this would be their next 'big thing' I doubt they would release something that would be too expensive for most consumers, but I personally think that it would also be a mistake to not release something that looks towards the future, hence my prediction of releasing both a 1080p display and a 4k display.

As much as we would like to think that 4k is here for consumers, it's not. Not in 2013 anyways, and maybe not 2014 either. We have to remember that most of us browsing this forum are NOT average consumers. BUT, it is coming, and it's coming down fast. Much faster than HD did, and I'm glad it is. I really hope RED and ODEMAX are the ones that give the consumer industry the big push into this beautiful thing we all know as 4k content.
 
Is this the first time that consumer televisions / devices have "out-rezed" computer displays? I'm wondering why graphics cards and the display standard for us editing this stuff isn't 4K and up.
 
Phil Holland said:
Correct. And there's a reason they stopped supporting it.
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure about YouTube not doing 4k anymore. And I'm the one that was 'busting' people for saying it was too. Oops.
I did some testing , and know for sure it does do 2560 , as proved by a test pattern I ran. Youtube's info you get when right clicking is not accurate. It says 2048 even when playing 2560.

The Netflix demo I saw in Samsungs area was not playing streaming , it was a mockup playing hard drive stuff just like all the other TV sets at the show. I asked.
4k tv is not led by Apple, as much as apple fan boys would like to think. Those TV's are possible because of the panel makers. There is a reason that all the 110" 4k TV sets various companies were exhibiting were all exactly the same size ;)
I held a 20" 4k tablet in my hands, ( display properties said 3840 ) and it wasn't Apples. Apple has peaked.
 
Fun part of vein in the midst of a technology schism is that you'll have to decide WHAT is the significant info for you to make your things work.

Is it 4k mastering/delivery? : Fine. It is future proofed, but maybe currently irrelevant

Is it 1080/2k mastering delivery : Sure. Might work fine on TV/web/current cinemas and TV but, will probably get "banned" in a few years.
NOW, that last argument is kinda interesting, as it will depend on content/intent whether that last "but" is of relevance or not...

Let's not forget the 8k perspective... :)

Tech as an argument to buy content only has relative value...
Let's look at what happened at the same time:
"HD-Ready TV's"
"Blueray/HD-DVD"
"Crappy encodings that make quite a few of my DVDs (well encoded) look better than my BlueRays (crappy encoded)"

Subsequent result = irrelevance of blue-ray/1080 in the living room.
Add to that (at least here) very crappy digital 1080 broadcast and mostly uncalibrated LCD's, and I can see why the consumer doesn't give a shit about 4k.

Now... How to change that and make the transition into 4k a good experience???

It is quite a quantum leap between the capacity to display 4k under certain conditions, and it actually being relevant...

I remember first time I saw 4k on the big screen back in the fall of 2007 (from one of the original pre-release and later exchanged first 100 RED1's)
And that still is one of the most exciting film images I have seen...

Still...
Goldfever on a poor/ok scan from DVD is more important to my kids than the smooth gradients in black in a 4k transcode I saw back then... :)
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Now... How to change that and make the transition into 4k a good experience???
Click to expand...

Bingo. That's why I find .RED, REDRAY, and ODEMAX pretty interesting. Looks great projected, relatively affordable, created with theatrical use in mind, and DRM.

One thing that I've always been utterly fascinated by is the rather abysmal way we browse for content on modern cable boxes. It took so long for the GUIs to get to where they are now and they are mostly not so good. I'm a fan of Netflix as well, but I think there's big design work to do on that front.

I think one thing we'll be seeing is mouse over fairly short micro trailers being integrated into the design shortly.

I've been making mock up GUIs for such things in my spare time for fun because I think it's a creative problem to tackle and nobody is doing it nicely.

User/viewer experience is going to be huge in the next few years. So much potential.
 
Phil Holland said:
Bingo. That's why I find .RED, REDRAY, and ODEMAX pretty interesting. Looks great projected, relatively affordable, created with theatrical use in mind, and DRM..
Click to expand...


Yup.

The catch if it rolls synchronously with "consume" 4k solutions.

That will create the "My iPhone records 1080, too" problem...
 
Stephen Gentle said:
What are you on about? The only stand-alone monitor they sell is 27" and has the same horizontal resolution as the 30" did (2560 px).
Click to expand...
Come on Stephen, what are YOU on about? The 30" Apple Cinema Display (which I also said earlier ceased production in 2010) has a resolution of 2560x1600. The current generation of Apple Cinema Displays (27") is 2560x1440. It's a lower resolution.

Stephen Gentle said:
Apple is the one manufacturer in the computer space pushing ahead with high-density displays, and were one of the first in the mobile space...
Click to expand...
Not true either. HTC and a few others beat Apple to the "high density/ppcm" game and there are a number of "high density" monitor manufacturers out there. Keep in mind, Apple is not a panel manufacturer. They source their stuff.
 
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Klas Persson said:
Well how is it that the Apple laptop I am using right now has a 2880 x 1800 resolution? Just under 3k, mind you.
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You're right. I've got one too (15" Apple MacBook Pro w/ Retina). And it's the highest resolution Apple has ever offered (2880x1800), although keep in mind, the working space you get is 1920x1200. 'Clarity' vs real estate.

Klas Persson said:
Apple is leading the resolution race. That said, I don't think their first tv will be a 4k one but I believe they will be one of the companies pushing 4k rather than slow it down.
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Still have to disagree with you there. Apple's density is strongest with the Retina MBP's, but PC manufacturers have had 1920x1280 notebooks for a while and company's like LG have had 440 PPI displays on the market for quite some time (AH-IPS).

Compare 440 PPI AH-IPS versus Apple iPhone's 326 PPI or iPad Retina's 297 PPI. Plus there's now Sharp's IGZO and Samsung's LTPS.

And remember, Apple sources their panels. So no, they are not leading the pack at all.
 
Even though Apple doesn't lead many packs as to cutting edge these days, they are quite good at raising conciousness and propagating the tech they embrace, like high density screens...
 
Phil Holland said:
June, 2012:
http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2012/6/18/the-4k-graphics-card-shootout.aspx

More's on the way. Wait. Moore's one the way. That makes more sense. Moore sense. Bah.
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Hehe... "Moore's on the way." Nice.

Phil Holland said:
Correct. And there's a reason they stopped supporting it.
Click to expand...
Ha!

Charles Bergquist said:
Is this the first time that consumer televisions / devices have "out-rezed" computer displays?
Click to expand...
Good question. Very primitive exceptions aside, I'd have to assume yes.

Les Dittert said:
4k tv is not led by Apple, as much as apple fan boys would like to think. Those TV's are possible because of the panel makers. There is a reason that all the 110" 4k TV sets various companies were exhibiting were all exactly the same size ;)
I held a 20" 4k tablet in my hands, ( display properties said 3840 ) and it wasn't Apples. Apple has peaked.
Click to expand...
Bingo. Peaked might be a bit much, but they are definitely not leading 4K/UHD revolution and you can bet they won't when the TV finally drops.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Even though Apple doesn't lead many packs as to cutting edge these days, they are quite good at raising conciousness and propagating the tech they embrace, like high density screens...
Click to expand...
And that's what I view as the 'problem' here. If Apple doesn't embrace 4K with their set -- which I do not believe they will in the first generation -- the inverse is also true. Tech adaptation slows. Content creation/distribution slows. Interest across the board will suffer. 1080p will hang around a lot longer.
 
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