Talk me into keeping my Scarlet-W order

[luigivaltulini]

Sorry, so you do, you never use because ALexa and too creamy and has less detail of a Sony !!or because it has no output to 4K? or because it is too heavy?You are not required to buy a RED, if you believe that Sony is better then buys a Sony.
You must choose the thing that makes you happier, and not complain!
Being only my personal opinion.

 

[Phil Holland]

Thanks Phil, that's very thorough and helpful as always.

I assume all the focus tools you mention are operating on the 1080p image though? I'd be very interested in your in depth details of the LUT system and how to use it properly. I spent a fair amount of time working my way through it but never found a way to get the ProRes to be in any way affected by the LUTs. It would be great on some jobs to be able to deliver a custom LUTted ProRes along with R3Ds so they see what I saw on set and understand the intent and expectations I had for a given image. If there was some way to have R3Ds automatically reflect any LUT used as well it would be very powerful.

I know there must be a lot of resolution in 5k, but I just know I was amazed how little detail there was when looking at some stuff I shot in the store. I hope it was the lens or the lighting but it does follow with some of my observations in the past shooting with Scarlet-X and feeling it seemed rather soft compared to every other camera system. I hoped that 5k for 4k delivery would compensate for that but I'm not quite convinced. Clearly I need to do more testing. I guess I'm always just baffled that my non-oversampled Sony 4k footage always look so sharp even without any sharpening but RED always seems to need a fair amount of sharpening to get close. Obviously there could be an aliasing tradeoff but I've never been bothered by aliasing in Sony cameras much.

Anytime. Some quick thoughts on resolution.


At it's core we are talking about two different schools of thought when it comes down to Captured Pixel Resolution. Two entire pixel worlds have developed over the last 20 years when it comes to digital motion pictures, which has led to essentially two schools of preference.

Pixels that adhere to a more video mindset or pixels that are more film-like.

In the case of leading digital cinema cameras, studios and creators tend to prefer the more film-like pixel concept for a litany of reasons. This is further dramatized by the clean look that video tends to provide versus the textured look of film. Again, comes down to preference.

RED cameras being a Bayer Pattern CMOS Sensor, capturing a Compressed Raw Format such as REDCODE RAW, with no Image Processing have essentially become very film-like at the Pixel Resolution level in how they function. Even down to the concept of oversampling during capture (if desired) and downsampling to the final delivery resolution is essentially very similar to how film has been scanned, digitized, and worked on for years now.

At the end of the day RED wants you to capture as much image information as possible. Detail, Dynamic Range, Color, etc... Then you can choose to do with it as you want.

Here's an example from 6K Weapon footage at 5:1 REDCODE RAW. And remember Scarlet-W at 100% resolution with REDCODE RAW 5:1 would yield identical results.








Click on any of those to load in a new window or tab.

It comes down to how you want your final image to look really.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I know there must be a lot of resolution in 5k, but I just know I was amazed how little detail there was when looking at some stuff I shot in the store. I hope it was the lens or the lighting but it does follow with some of my observations in the past shooting with Scarlet-X and feeling it seemed rather soft compared to every other camera system. I hoped that 5k for 4k delivery would compensate for that but I'm not quite convinced. Clearly I need to do more testing. I guess I'm always just baffled that my non-oversampled Sony 4k footage always look so sharp even without any sharpening but RED always seems to need a fair amount of sharpening to get close. Obviously there could be an aliasing tradeoff but I've never been bothered by aliasing in Sony cameras much.

I need to step in here, 5K Dragon is NOT SOFT. It's just not SHARPENED IN CAMERA. You have to add it in post.

We just came back from a HUGE SHOOT in CALIFORNIA with HUGE STARS, and did interviews in 6K...and delivered reframes at 4K, 3K, and 2.5K (downscaled to 1080)....and it all looked AMAZING (especially after being graded and sharpened by our colorist).

Judging "sharpness" in the RED store with an unknown lens in an unlit random environment...is not really a valid criteria.

Also - your judging against incredibly sharpened/post processed Sony footage. It's comparing apples to oranges. And comparing two wildly opposed philosophies.

No one's MAKING you buy a Scarlet-W. If you like Sony, stick to it. Theres no sin in knowing and liking the tools that suite you best.

 

[Quinton Weiskittel]

Phil,

Do you have a gold reflector on talents lower right, or some kind of daylight balanced LED?

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil,

Do you have a gold reflector on talents lower right, or some kind of daylight balanced LED?

Yep on the reflector. Special thanks to Travis for being a trooper there.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

I think it's fair to say the images out of a RED, on a pixel level are pretty soft.

There are upsides such as very good resistance to aliasing and moiré (not quite sure about the extent of moiré, since it's more about pixel pitch). I also think that the generally softer gradations are more film like and less digital looking.

But… I'd say that pretty significant oversampling becomes a requirement. So when you're shooting 4.5k or 4k, you need to pay attention if you deliver at 4k. RED's big boy resolution of 6k (and 8k now) is larger than 4k by a comfortable margin—but you probably want to be shooting 6k to get where you want to be at for a 4k finish.

This is an unsharpened .jpeg 100% CROP from my Canon (from a raw file in order to see what I would refer to as not soft at 1:1 pixel level). Open in separate tab like Phil suggests above.

 

[Doug Laurent]

My recent hesitation in early upgrade decisions also comes from the lack of early availability of complete compression / frame rate tables. When I did upgrade from Epic MX to Epic Dragon, it took months until I found out that the old SSDs don't deliver the same Redcode options anymore, which meant I had to upgrade to the Minimag system as well, which meant the whole upgrade was twice as expensive as it looked. Not good!

Luckily some days ago I had the chance to lay hands on the Scarlet Weapon and Raven to see the maximum options with my own eyes. As far as I can remember both can do full 4K in 60fps at 7:1 which is great, but make the cheaper Raven look more attractive. The big Scarlet limitation to me is that it ends at 5K 50fps and not 60fps. I think 4.5k and 240fps was not implemented yet, but might come as announced in the specs. In any event Red should make this data more accessible and release it earlier.

Personally i would always go with 5K-8K oversampling and 60fps, and Vistavision is very interesting - but only when the full matrix of redcode rates and fps is available! I was surprised how small and light the new Weapon body felt. If the Weapon module system will be upgradable with an updated sensor with better lowlight abilities in 1-2 years, then an upgrade might be inevitable anyway.

 

[Mark Toia]

The bigger and better the sensors, the better the lens has to be... Simple as that.
If your getting soft images, start there...

Plus good post sharpeners (Premier and AE have the best) will make the shots razor sharp, even with 400% zoom ups. But again, it comes down to the lens used on the day.

I still believe spec wise the RED WEAPON SCARLET is the best bang for buck Camera in the RED fleet.


Helpfull TIP: If you want smooth noise free images, shoot at 25-320 asa. Keep the histogram to the right without clipping highlights. use the traffic lights.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Also - your judging against incredibly sharpened/post processed Sony footage. It's comparing apples to oranges. And comparing two wildly opposed philosophies.

Actually I'm comparing primarily against the 4K Prores I get from my 7Q which is 4k raw from the camera debayered without sharpening or noise reduction as I understand it.

Phil, I look at those images and truthfully I see the same thing that I see with most red cameras, the 1080p 1:1 image looks a bit like 720p upscaled and I can't find what's in focus because it's all a bit soft and then your sharpened sample looks way oversharpened and still the detail doesn't look that sharp compared to what I'm used to seeing even from unsharpened Sony 4k prores. It seems like I might be in agreement with Andree in that it just seems like RED needs 5k-6k out of necessity to get sharp looking 4k where for some reason other cameras get sharp 4k from a 4k sensor which I know should either alias or be soft but they just doesn't seem to have aliasing in a way that would ever bother me in my experience. That said, Andree are you sure that doesn't have sharpnening? Most still photo raw processing software automatically sharpens unless you turn it all the way down manually. Basically my worry is that this further necessitates >4k shooting on RED which means on Scarlet-W 60fps and 120fps not only will crop but may be noticeably soft at 4k compared to the 120fps 4k I'm used to on my FS700+7Q.

Problem with all these things is that it has a lot to do with our points of reference. I'm sure RED doesn't seem soft for most users, but I imagine most people still aren't really delivering or viewing in 4k and Weapon 6k I'm sure more than compensates for any softness with its huge oversampling. But my expectations are set by the equipment I've used, and Scarlet-X was and Scarlet-W seems it probably is significantly softer at 100% than the Sony gear I'm used to, and I'd be more worried about being able to maintain sharpness for any reframing that might get done in post with or without my permission. It just makes it harder to compare these camera system specs when RED really needs to be run at at least 5k to compete with other 4k cameras.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

If the Weapon module system will be upgradable with an updated sensor with better lowlight abilities in 1-2 years, then an upgrade might be inevitable anyway.

But that's my other hesitation, I waited 1.5 years for a Scarlet Dragon upgrade that I ordered and just ended up selling my camera before it ever came... It always seemed like upgrades are slow and expensive and no fun but a necessary and good way to compensate for what I perceive as a pretty poor resale market for RED cameras given the added cost of ownership transfer and basically obsoleting non-upgraded cameras given RED and it's users' constant focus on the next big thing.

 

[jordan levy]

i dont see the softness, i see nice cinematic roll offs from highlight to shadow and color. i see the opposite of every sony camera ever made, overly sharp and a hard feel to it.
even with alexa and red cameras i use a light diffusion or vintage lenses to take the edge off.
i did have to use a sony f55 once for some pickup and i had to use heavier diffusion to make it the least bit pleasant.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Here is what I'm talking about, Phil's 100% frame next to a 100% crop of a roughly graded shot with no sharpening or NR from my FS700+7Q shot in 4K Prores LT (don't mind the noise, this was night mostly available light rated in the ISO2000 range if I recall)


Click to view full size

To me the difference is pretty significant, maybe not even something 5k can compensate for... And I'd rather have the option of adding softness through filters or in post than being stuck with it and not being able to get sharp images for reframes etc. Also sometimes it seems like a bit of a waste to record so many pixels with so little detail in them.

This worries me for RAVEN users especially who are new to RED and may not realize their camera will deliver rather soft 4k and for Scarlet-W users like future myself who may have to mandate 5k to combat the softness but then not feel able to go past 50fps when I used to comfortably go to 60fps and 120fps with little downside.

 

[jordan levy]

Here is what I'm talking about, Phil's 100% frame next to a 100% crop of a roughly graded shot with no sharpening or NR from my FS700+7Q shot in 4K Prores LT (don't mind the noise, this was night mostly available light rated in the ISO2000 range if I recall)


Click to view full size

To me the difference is pretty significant, maybe not even something 5k can compensate for... And I'd rather have the option of adding softness through filters or in post than being stuck with it and not being able to get sharp images for reframes etc. Also sometimes it seems like a bit of a waste to record so many pixels with so little detail in them.

This worries me for RAVEN users especially who are new to RED and may not realize their camera will deliver rather soft 4k and for Scarlet-W users like future myself who may have to mandate 5k to combat the softness but then not feel able to go past 50fps when I used to comfortably go to 60fps and 120fps with little downside.

sorry i still dont view that as soft, i feel it as pleasant
you should definitely get the sony.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

sorry i still dont view that as soft, i feel it as pleasant
you should definitely get the sony.

You seem to misunderstand, I already have the Sony, I got it 4 years ago...

One of RED's biggest selling points is resolution, but you like that it's not really there? I guess I always figured RED 4k would sharpen up well but never actually delivered or monitored a project I shot on RED in 4k, but the more I investigate it seems like there is just not as much detail as a lot of other cameras systems that run at lower resolutions.

 

[Spencer Morris]

sorry i still dont view that as soft, i feel it as pleasant
you should definitely get the sony.

I respect your opinion but your comment reminds me of when you refer to an overweight person as big boned in order to be politically correct. It's certainly fine if you prefer the softer look but let's not pretend that the RED still is not soft compared to the Sony Raw ProRes still. Big difference.

The thing I've found with RED is they can be a bit softer than a camera setup capable of clinical sharpness, but the colour and dynamic range is so much better on RED. And adding in post-sharpening is good enough for me.

And FWIW I've always been blown away by the sharpness on that video Phil did with the girl with green make-up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyIAV5YVjA4
Then again that was shot at 6K WS, not 5K.

 

[chommavong somphane]

I don't see the point of why some body has to convince you to buy S-W.
If you don't see it as a better tool, that you can use to tell the story the way you want, then buy(you already have)the better one.
This post looks like you are up for argument.
Sorry for shim in, can't stand it.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

That said, Andree are you sure that doesn't have sharpnening? Most still photo raw processing software automatically sharpens unless you turn it all the way down manually.

No sharpening. It's from a raw photo that's zeroed out in Lightroom with only 'color correction', like Phils images had (overall contrast). 1Dc with a 70-200 2.8 IS II. I double checked that the sharpening was '0'.

I am not saying it's a "video to video" comparison. Just talking strictly what a well resolved 1:1 pixel readout looks like, nothing more.

 

[jordan levy]

to each it's own.
but honestly on your picture on the right, i cant tell even where your focus is, his hair looks to have as much detail as i would ever want, i dont know what kind of lens you were on, what your stop was, or what you are zoomed into. on phils picture you are zoomed way into the side of image, not even the center. who know what lens he was on or his depth of field or anything. so many variables it's really hard to compare.
i do know from experience sony imagery is way to sharp for my taste, and its not the resolution that decides that, its how the camera processes the material. as phil mentioned they do sharpening in camera.
there was a nice article about the dp that shot the show vinyl with a sony, he actually had to have panavision make custom softnet filters for behind the lens to get the look he wanted, as well as older primos, then added a lot fo grain in the shadows and highlights.

so, bottom line, i dont think you should buy a scarlet at all, keep your sony and continue to do what you do with the camera you are happy with.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Is 4K+ and sharpness reds selling point? I'd say it's fast frame rates at high resolution with nice range, and cheaper than Arri. So for me the resolution point probably matters the least. Arri still doesn't have a 4K camera outside 30 specialty rental units with a giant sensor and lenses. I don't think the pixels matter outside Netflix and the few entities who care about it in the requirements. (However as a camera nerd myself I also dive into thoughts like yours on the technical merits to cost ratios, particularly given reds new line up). Is it not also better to ride the return on the current camera as long as market dictates vs spending more with an unknown affect in demand of your services? You can always rent and skip marrying the cow? Ps if you want to talk about fake sharpness what about Arri uprez vs red vs 4K Sony? At least Netflix accepts red as legitimate UHD lol?

 

[Ugo Del]

So now people think that 6k is a minimum? Well, i watched and read many BTS stuffs, and even if people are sometimes shooting 6k (like House of Cards or Gone Girl) they almost always crop to 5k. Or just shoot 5k directly (like The Martian). The Social Network was 4k, and The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo 3.5k cropped. On the recent movies I often have the feeling that it's way too sharp. Same with my Red cameras. It was said one billion times here: these cameras need light. Testing a camera in a shop and making your decision based on that is non sense.