Sony F5 and F55...

[Antony M]

Does anyone actually look at the difference before posting?

I'm now offline. I need a break. This stuff is too taxing to deal with.

Jim

I have tried to.

But so far I have only found 1 cinema with a 4k projector (Showcase Deluxe in Bristol).
And every time I go there to see a new release, they say it is only available from the distributor in 2k.

So I have never seen anything projected or screened at 4k (unless the stuff at Red's Open Day in Pinewood was projected in 4k??)

 

[Andrew Huse]

If the Monochrome is any indication of Dragon, Sony and Arri should be worried.

 

[Richard Goodwin]

It is highly unlikely theaters will take on a mass conversion two 4K anytime soon. Theater chains have just undergone a major conversion from film projection to digital projection (2K etc). In addition they made a significant investment in 3D projection systems which provided short-term additional profit, but did not turn out to be the long term cash bonanza they had hoped. In general the theaters are generally experiencing little to no growth in attendance. They have to raise concession sales and ticket prices to increase revenue. So, unless there is some major surprise success (disruptive event) of 4K content etc. they have little motivation to convert.

So, while there is no question 4K projection is a superior viewing experience it seems unlikely there will be many 4K venues anytime soon.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

It is highly unlikely theaters will take on a mass conversion two 4K anytime soon. Theater chains have just undergone a major conversion from film projection to digital projection (2K etc). In addition they made a significant investment in 3D projection systems which provided short-term additional profit, but did not turn out to be the long term cash bonanza they had hoped. In general the theaters are generally experiencing little to no growth in attendance. They have to raise concession sales and ticket prices to increase revenue. So, unless there is some major surprise success (disruptive event) of 4K content etc. they have little motivation to convert.

So, while there is no question 4K projection is a superior viewing experience it seems unlikely there will be many 4K venues anytime soon.

I am not an expert on this topic so you may know better, but it is my understanding (from reading this forum) that a lot of those 2K projectors are upgradeable.

 

[Richard Goodwin]

I am not an expert on this topic so you may know better, but it is my understanding (from reading this forum) that a lot of those 2K projectors are upgradeable.

But, it still will cost money to upgrade. Generally, too when a company makes a large capital investment the accounting of that investment on their books is done over a period of years. So, they would have to take a $$ loss on their 2K investment to some degree.

Not saying it's not possible to do but I'm just unclear Theatre Chains will have the incentive to spend the cash to do it.

 

[Gabriel Scindian]

RED should design a lithium/(other component here) battery brick in the same form factor as the Epic/Scarlet modules that performs as powerful as those vmounts.

 

[jake blackstone]

later was the chef tehnition in biggest post production house in israel between 89-91 ( 1 inch beta sp , d-1 and all the shit around )

Oleg.
Not to nitpick, but there never was 1" BetaSP. It always was and still is a 1/2". You probably confusing 1/2" Beta Sp with 1" Type C recorders, like BVH-1000 or BVH-1100.

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

It is highly unlikely theaters will take on a mass conversion two 4K anytime soon. Theater chains have just undergone a major conversion from film projection to digital projection (2K etc). In addition they made a significant investment in 3D projection systems which provided short-term additional profit, but did not turn out to be the long term cash bonanza they had hoped. In general the theaters are generally experiencing little to no growth in attendance. They have to raise concession sales and ticket prices to increase revenue. So, unless there is some major surprise success (disruptive event) of 4K content etc. they have little motivation to convert.

So, while there is no question 4K projection is a superior viewing experience it seems unlikely there will be many 4K venues anytime soon.

Not true. I went on a tour of an AMC theatre about 4 years ago after they converted to 4K Sony projectors. The theatre manager's biggest complaint was that they were only being delivered 2K content. They were preparing for the onslaught of 3D - I believe 2x2K images. So I don't believe a new conversion for most theatres will be necessary. I just saw Samsara in Toronto last weekend - projected 4K. Most theatres are ready - they just need the content (and proper 4K finish).

 

[Terry VerHaar]

But, it still will cost money to upgrade. Generally, too when a company makes a large capital investment the accounting of that investment on their books is done over a period of years. So, they would have to take a $$ loss on their 2K investment to some degree.

Not saying it's not possible to do but I'm just unclear Theatre Chains will have the incentive to spend the cash to do it.

Enter the REDray projector! Sleek, modern, and AFFORDABLE! :smiley:

 

[Mark Britton]

This is really important - and I'd love to know more about the specifics. On many projects the DP does not choose the format. If I tell a producer that their product won't have life after HD (if they shoot on a 1080 camera) - that would have a lot of weight in swaying a decision. But I would need more hard evidence. What else can you tell us about this new standard?

I'm not trying to put words in Mr. Jannard's mouth, but I presume the consumer 4K standard he is referring to is the Ultra High Definition (UHD) standard recently ratified by the CEA and announced 10/18/2012:

http://www.ce.org/News/News-Release...lectronics-Industry-Announces-Ultra-High.aspx

Quoting a key portion of the definition of UHD:

The group also defined the core characteristics of Ultra High-Definition TVs, monitors and projectors for the home. Minimum performance attributes include display resolution of at least eight million active pixels, with at least 3,840 horizontally and at least 2,160 vertically. Displays will have an aspect ratio with width to height of at least 16 X 9. To use the Ultra HD label, display products will require at least one digital input capable of carrying and presenting native 4K format video from this input at full 3,840 X 2,160 resolution without relying solely on up-converting.

 

[Richard Goodwin]

Not true. I went on a tour of an AMC theatre about 4 years ago after they converted to 4K Sony projectors. The theatre manager's biggest complaint was that they were only being delivered 2K content. They were preparing for the onslaught of 3D - I believe 2x2K images. So I don't believe a new conversion for most theatres will be necessary. I just saw Samsara in Toronto last weekend - projected 4K. Most theatres are ready - they just need the content (and proper 4K finish).

My point exactly. Unless there is a predictable and sizable flow of 4K movies that are seen by the exhibitors as increasing ticket sales they are not going to undergo a mass conversion to 4K immediately. As with 3D and other newer formats they will convert some theaters in various markets. Now, over time (say 2-4 years) yes I could see a movement to a higher resolution.

But, if we are going to get into it I'd suggest that resolution will be more something at the IMAX level or above. Because (as an earlier post on this thread expressed) that does seem to drive ticket sales of big budget action and effects driven movies. It could give a boost to straight dramatic productions as well. This would mean acquisition would be more at the 6K-8K size in fact (sorry I don't have the numbers of how much K equals IMAX right now).

In fact I'd say the bar in general for digital acquisition now is IMAX level. Quality film like productions (35mm) by digital is already a done deal, and that has been shown by both productions shot 4K and 2K. Agree 4K is better. But, there have been plenty of successful and good looking 2K shot productions. But, to get the immersion level of IMAX in digital; that race is just getting going. I suspect its one reason RED is driving so hard on Dragon level sensors.

 

[Axel Mertes]

I have tried to.

But so far I have only found 1 cinema with a 4k projector (Showcase Deluxe in Bristol).
And every time I go there to see a new release, they say it is only available from the distributor in 2k.

So I have never seen anything projected or screened at 4k (unless the stuff at Red's Open Day in Pinewood was projected in 4k??)

Here in germany its the same story. You can find Sony 4K projectors all over the country, probably many hundrets.
I did not find a single one equipped with the true 4K lens during projection. They have them in a box, most of them never really unpacked them at all.
Most of the installed base of 4K projectors (from Sony) is using the 2 * 2K side by side projection lense for Stereo 3D movie projection. Thats a fact!
I asked the technician in one of the cinemas about Prometheus. He told me they showed - f**k - a 35mm copy of it. So much about 4K distribution reality...

So if you read 4K outside, it might still not be 4K inside.

I don't know of a single theater release in germany which ever got a real 4K distribution master. Not a single one. One of the largest movie markets in the world...

We tried to showcase 4K DCPs prior to IBC and it was simply impossible to find a single theater in the Rhein-Main-Region which was capable to do it.


Did I mention that we are currently airing "Götter wie wir", our god comedy series, shot in god-like 4K, posted in full 4K, now airing in HD (I think it might even be 720p?). At least we have saved for the future!
http://www.goetterwiewir.de

Cheers,
Axel

 

[Greg McDonald]

Oleg.
Not to nitpick, but there never was 1" BetaSP. It always was and still is a 3/4". You probably confusing 3/4" Beta Sp with 1" Type C recorders, like BVH-1000 or BVH-1100.

Actually Beta is 1/2". I know...completely useless detail in this thread and who cares?

 

[oleg kaizerman]

Oleg.
Not to nitpick, but there never was 1" BetaSP. It always was and still is a 3/4". You probably confusing 3/4" Beta Sp with 1" Type C recorders, like BVH-1000 or BVH-1100.

i don't confuse anything , i just forgot that one , capito ? , bvw 65 , 70 and 75 d ,we had B( bosh bcn 51) and c format BVH1100 sony mastering
of course we had few 3/4 high band sp incl slow motion ones
do you remeber zeno or abecas , iam talking about half million and more usd in 1990s in each room for editing facilities

 

[M Most]

It isn't about today.... it is about tomorrow. What happens when 4K is the standard in the home and up-rezzing isn't an option?

Jim

a} I was responding to a statement made that "there are TV shows today being done in 4K." That is not the case unless one is only talking about original capture, and not what is actually being created as a final product.

b} Yes, I agree it's about tomorrow, but based on what is already being done, uprezzing is always an option, even if it's not the best or most palatable one. :wink5:

 

[Axel Mertes]

a} I was responding to a statement made that "there are TV shows today being done in 4K." That is not the case unless one is only talking about original capture, and not what is actually being created as a final product.

b} Yes, I agree it's about tomorrow, but based on what is already being done, uprezzing is always an option, even if it's not the best or most palatable one. :wink5:

Hi Michael,

I have to repeat myself here:

We are airing a TV comedy mini series now, that has been shot in 4K and posted in 4K. Its airing in HD (or even 720p), but we did post in 4K.
However, you are probably right for 99.99% of the market (I think we might be the first one ever).

A big obstackle with 4K final product is: Which codec?
Have you ever tried making a H264 in 4K?
I wonder which encoder would allow you to do so... Its really a codec issue!
We used CineForm throughout post, though...

And yes, upscaling will always happen, regardless what they say or write. Just think of documentary stuff. It will be "fun" to see those old U-Matic tapes on 4K screens... Ouch!


Cheers,
Axel

 

[Asif Limbada]

There's a need for a proper 4K delivery codec

 

[Jay Birch]

There is a new standard from Japan (not exactly sure why they get to call the shots) for consumer 4K . It dictates that you can't up-rez to 4K.

I think there is a huge misconception on this thread about the above quote.

All that means is that companies can't up-rez footage and claim it is 4K or UltraHD. The networks can still broadcast SD, 720p, 1080p and 2K.... They just can't claim it's 4K. Nothing more, nothing less.

People are talking here like they will not be able to broadcast, say, "Friends", over a 4KTV.... Of course they can, they just can't call it 4K... Similar rules apply for HD already on most networks.... A piece must contain at least 85% (or some figure) to be given "HD" status.

 

[jake blackstone]

Actually Beta is 1/2". I know...completely useless detail in this thread and who cares?

Yes, completely useless information and ironic in light of me correcting with wrong info

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

There's a need for a proper 4K delivery codec

REDRAY and H265