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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sony F5 and F55...

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not even one camera sell 1 more ticket in the cinema or brings more rating , the audience doesn't care if it 1080 or 4 k or 5 k .
99 % of people who on that board will never shoot for something that is bigger then 60 inch set .
for me red did not change the world , they made it worse , they gave the opportunity for idiots to dump the industry with no money productions and tones of projects which have no distribution and eventually been sold for nothing ' every one could be a "foolmaker" for cinema , isnt it a sony slogan from the past ? :-)
spy kids 2 was shot on 900F and it still better picture then 100s which been shot on red
so who cares if it 4k or 2 k or 1080 , you care only for how comfortable your tool is , that's what arri understand
and something about sony , they came with best camecorder ever made for human shoulder in 88 bvw 200 , they came with detachable ccd sensor from camera in 91 BVP 70T AND THEY DO HAVE THE BEST CAMERA NOW F65-ITS A FACT
RED is a good product , just it not really suits 95% of the working class heroes way they make money , and you need to do something with your cooling system as well :-)
by they way i started at 86 with ikegami 79, 95 and bvp -30 and even then the sony was better and more reliable but every one was talking about how good the ikegami looks and lost money as the camera was going out of registration after 3 hours of work
Not sure I would agree with you entirely about it being RED's fault for the race to the bottom. Not everyone can afford a RED camera, even now. With Red One, you were looking at a minimum of $22K investment and as we all know that just gets you started. Easily can spend an additional $50K on a lot of other things to go along with it. What had more impact on the race to the bottom is the DSLR emergence. That's when it became possible to get professional, cinematic looking images out of a relatively cheap camera.

Having said that, it's not really the camera's fault that budgets have been slashed. There are a lot of factors involved. The poor economy has a major impact. Producers have been forced to get as much as they can for as little as they can. DSLRs have played a role in that by enabling the producers to get "good enough" quality and still make their budgets.

What RED has enabled are filmmakers who didn't have access to $100K cameras in the past now having some access and therefore getting their projects made. Is this bad? No worse than filmmakers who were able to access cheaper gear in the past such as Super8 film. Just because you had a camera didn't make you the next David Lean. The same rules apply. Script, lighting, production design, good actors, good sound, etc. are all still necessary and therefore the camera becomes just a small cog in the wheel. An important cog but not the only one.
 
Upwards and onwards. 4K and beyond, bit depth, and latitude - go go go. It's all good.

However, I honestly feel that we are almost past the point where the technical specs of cameras have become unimportant, and that we can start to view cameras the way we used to look at different emulsions and lab processes. It's now more down to the look and feel.

One of the most beautifully shot films in the past few years in my opinion was "Black Swan" shot in s16. If you put on your "only-4K-is-good-enough-goggles" you could argue that the imagery of Black Swan is shit, But this is not how I FEEL about the images when I watch the film. When I listen to old audio recordings from the 30's and 40's my intellect tells me it sounds like shit, but the sound transports me into my soul like a modern 24bit recording rarely does.

I think it has to do with the fundamental principle of "the willing suspension of disbelief" upon which all art, and film in particular is built. When the image becomes "too real" the contract between the film and the audience start to break down. The "realness" of the picture starts to reveal the true reality - it's only actors on a set. When there is a layer of imperfection it helps the willing suspension of disbelief because it leaves room for your imagination to take you the rest of the way. I think this is why all those people who walked out of the 48fps Las Vegas pre-screening of "The Hobbit" FELT it was shit.

And I know this may be "swearing in the church" but am I the only one who actually preferred the look and feel of the original Mysterium sensor to the MX one? Not a huge difference, but it's there.

All I'm saying is that it is indeed the role of technology companies to push forward, but we need to also keep in mind that whenever we get sucked into the "only 4K is good enough" -thinking, we should go watch Black Swan, Leaving Las Vegas or any other film that in those technical terms is far from good enough.

Your milage may vary on the above, an that's OK.

Just had to get this off my chest.

Joachim Hedén
(Have tried to change my red-user name to my real name, but for some reason it never worked so I gave up)
 
To sell a new product, it usually has to be better than its predecessor. Wouldn't you say, Mark K? With all due respect, let me ask you... What is the selling point of a 4k TV?

I haven't the foggiest!

I think that for most people's TV sizes and average viewing distances at home, the benefit of moving from SD to HD isn't actually all that great - you need to be pretty close to the tele or you need a really big screen to see a really appreciable difference - so the benefit of moving from HD to 4K in those same viewing conditions is almost moot.

Unless the screen-sizes (for both TV and Cinema) and the distances at which we view them change dramatically in the future - the benefit of added resolution simply isn't all that great. Circle of confusion and the ability of our eyes to resolve the added detail, makes it very hard to see any great difference - especially with images that are moving along at 24-30fps.

The one area that I can see the added resolution making a substantial difference is in home cinema setups - where the size of the screen and our viewing distance to it is more exaggerated than just about any other viewing environment. That's a situation where you can definitely see a difference (because you're closer to it).

Personally I wish the resolution race would come to an end, and the industry instead looked at using the additional broadcast bandwidth to transmit images with a wider colour gamut bit-depth and tonal range - give the world a television format that stretches beyond the limitations of Rec709. I think that would make a far greater difference to the apparent image quality we could view, than added resolution can (at this point, and with our current viewing conditions).
 
Sony smony....

I pity all the dudes that just bought a F65.. Life span.. 8 months...

It will sit next the the f35 and f23 gathering dust in the back of rental houses....

You would think that a lot of people would have learned there lesson the first 2 times.

I think if you go Sony now... they will have something out again in the next 6 to 12 months. Boom.. another dust collector.

I'm quite happy with my 2 year old EPIC's - (still well on top in the resolution / size / price race... and probably for another year or two to come... then Dragon comes out for a lousy 6 grand... and trumps them all again.


While everyone else is wanking.. Im bankin :)
 
Sony smony....

I pity all the dudes that just bought a F65.. Life span.. 8 months...

dont think any indepent filmmakers bought F65.Sure it does produces better image than Epic but life span and sensor upgrades means nothing for rental companies.I know only few F65s in my country and they used these more features than shot Epic ones.
 
dont think any indepent filmmakers bought F65.Sure it does produces better image than Epic but life span and sensor upgrades means nothing for rental companies.I know only few F65s in my country and they used these more features than shot Epic ones.

Oh trust, they do care... I know alot of rental company owners that almost cut there wrists when there 6 month old $100,000 dollar cameras become super seeded....
 
Hell Yeah

Hell Yeah

Sony smony....

I pity all the dudes that just bought a F65.. Life span.. 8 months...

It will sit next the the f35 and f23 gathering dust in the back of rental houses....

You would think that a lot of people would have learned there lesson the first 2 times.

I think if you go Sony now... they will have something out again in the next 6 to 12 months. Boom.. another dust collector.

I'm quite happy with my 2 year old EPIC's - (still well on top in the resolution / size / price race... and probably for another year or two to come... then Dragon comes out for a lousy 6 grand... and trumps them all again.


While everyone else is wanking.. Im bankin :)

The PDX10. The Z1P. The EX1. The EX3. For every new camera, a new eco-system. Never again.
 
not even one camera sell 1 more ticket in the cinema or brings more rating , the audience doesn't care if it 1080 or 4 k or 5 k .

I've bought tickets for movies shot on IMAX cameras and 4K cameras. Lately I've been seeking out movies shot in the 50's and 60's on 65mm negative. If you disregard me for being techie... that doesn't explain why IMAX theaters are always packed with people looking to view high resolution films. When regular theaters are doing so terrible... IMAX is flourishing.

While everyone else is wanking.. Im bankin :)

LOL.
 
Personally I wish the resolution race would come to an end said:
I really agree that we need to have a wider colour gamut. It makes a tremendous difference to the image. On many projects if I could have a choice between this or higher resolution, I would take the former.
 
Imagine if the new 007 or said TV shows were captured in 4 or 5k? I guess when our 4k TVs arrive they will just have to scale them up by what 400%? That will look greeeaaaatttt ..... RED is thinking for now AND the future.
 
There is a new standard from Japan (not exactly sure why they get to call the shots) for consumer 4K . It dictates that you can't up-rez to 4K...

There are 4K display panels being released. 4K projectors. The world is finally coming to its senses. We predicted this 6 years ago. Now it is here.
Sony is a large company with diverse divisions. The Pro camera division is making money, but it's a drop in the bucket compared with Sony's overall losses.

To stem their losses, Sony needs to sell millions of new 4K TV's (their flagship 84" is $25K). They can't do that without 4K content, which is virtually non-existent.

I can imagine them deciding to give away 4K cameras (razors) to help sell 4K TV's (blades).

In any event, to give them their due, they've been publicly promoting 4K for several years:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/video/coll...aining/video-cinealta_hdworld2010_4k_roadmap/

Cheers.
 
Jim,
Yes You were right to be the leader I this movement to 4K. And as much as the acalades should go to you we see the market just move forward. But it will be interesting to see how Arri addresses this.
They have become the major competition and have publicly stated that their resolution is enough. This Sony announcement should finally force their hand.

People think the Sony cameras weaken Red"s position. No, they may lose some sales but in the end will be strong

100%. I will be shocked if ARRI doesn't at least make an announcement. If they don't, they are basically throwing in the towel. Everything SONY is doing helps RED. Push 4K. And new cameras helps get people "sticking to what they know" - to actually test cameras.
 
Not only does it affect us in what is out there, but now we have to look at what is coming. Sure Sony's announcement is causing buzz and may even lure a few RED customers or potential customers to their products. But when RED starts the Dragon upgrades, then they are left with a second tier camera and if they want to be first tier, have to get out of the underwater Sony purchase and move back to RED. We have to be futurists now.

It's kinda like being in a checkout line at a grocery store. Usually you get to the head of the line quicker by staying in one line that moves efficiently rather than jumping from line to line.
 
I haven't the foggiest!

I think that for most people's TV sizes and average viewing distances at home, the benefit of moving from SD to HD isn't actually all that great - you need to be pretty close to the tele or you need a really big screen to see a really appreciable difference

*POOF* <-- the sound of your credibility evaporating

42" 1080p LCD's in average sized living rooms are pretty common. If you can't see a substantial difference between SD and HD sitting on the other side of the coffee table 8-10' away, then I certainly can understand why the signficance of 4K for larger venue exhibiton is lost upon you.

-sc
 
I think that for most people's TV sizes and average viewing distances at home, the benefit of moving from SD to HD isn't actually all that great - you need to be pretty close to the tele or you need a really big screen to see a really appreciable difference - so the benefit of moving from HD to 4K in those same viewing conditions is almost moot.

I see a big difference between 720p and 1080p on my HD television and an huge difference between SD and HD. Have you had an eye exam lately? :)
 
No offence Oleg... but aren't you a Sound Guy? Can't remember the last time anyone took photography advice from an Audio specialist... let alone one who thinks Spy Kids 2 rivals anything photographically.
no ofence , i dont give you any advice how to lit your youtube projects :-)
spy kids 2 for me is the death of the film and that the not the best format available is what brings the audience , i predicted 5 years till it dies , it took 9, sorry , if you don't believe me i have few witness for that statement incl former chearman of isreali film academy .
by the way , i started as video tehnison in 86 in post production , later was the chef tehnition in biggest post production house in israel between 89-91 ( 1 inch beta sp , d-1 and all the shit around ) later been partner in rental company with value of 300000 us d money of today ( few 400, 600, broadcast zooms , regular for these days ), i still can reload 35 or 16 magazines and make focus , later i left it and just doing sound for the last 17 yeas exclusively and have few best sound awards in isreali feature films
of course i dont know shit about industry as i am a soundman :-)
dont take it personalty , its business , its not about cameras , its about cash flow
today for me equipment is a tax shelter , becouse the real money is from your tallent if you are dp and the equipment is another extra bucks if you manage it right and not the other way
my 2 shekels
 
There is a new standard from Japan (not exactly sure why they get to call the shots) for consumer 4K . It dictates that you can't up-rez to 4K.

It means that features and TV shows shot on 1080P or 2K are destined to be left out of a second bite of the apple for a 4K delivery opportunity.
Jim

This is really important - and I'd love to know more about the specifics. On many projects the DP does not choose the format. If I tell a producer that their product won't have life after HD (if they shoot on a 1080 camera) - that would have a lot of weight in swaying a decision. But I would need more hard evidence. What else can you tell us about this new standard?
 
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