Christian Munoz D
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Great! Thank you Jim et All
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So... how do I do it?
- Thread starter Jannard
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Great! Thank you Jim et All
Omar Al-Masab
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thank you Gunleik, I tried that and it is not the same look !!
Omar Al-Masab
Well-known member
what is the difference between
redlogfilm 2 vs redgamma 2
is it just The "S" gamma curve or is there more to it?
redlogfilm 2 vs redgamma 2
is it just The "S" gamma curve or is there more to it?
Gunleik Groven
REDuser Sponsor
It shouldn't look like what the redlogfilm looks like in RCX, it should look about what RedGamma2 looks like with the highlights and lowlights more in place...
Gunleik Groven
REDuser Sponsor
There is a bit more to it....
RedlogFilm is cineon compliant and does thus fit into a bunch of exiting color-workflows...
redLog is still the most precise (given that you take care in the top when developing) but redlogFilm is just working sooo much better for 99% of the scenarios...
Graeme Nattress
RED Problem Solver
First - EXRs / linearized dpx in Nuke. Nuke works in linear light, but as that's a pain to see what is going on, they have a "viewing lut" which shows you what you've got. For combined grading / VFX workflows using REDLogFilm on the grading side works well, and if you take a REDlogFilm to Nuke, the standard Log2Lin node linearizes it perfectly. Similarly you can export an EXR for VFX, and match back to the REDLogFilm you're grading with via a standard Lin2Log node in Nuke.
REDLog was designed in the pre-FLUT, original M days and was designed as a high precision mapping of the image data to 10bits. REDLogFilm works differently, and as you see above matches wonderfully with a VFX / grading workflow. I'd not recommend the use of REDLog. It worked great and served it's purpose, but REDLogFilm is the one to use today.
Hope that clarifies some things.
Graeme
REDLog was designed in the pre-FLUT, original M days and was designed as a high precision mapping of the image data to 10bits. REDLogFilm works differently, and as you see above matches wonderfully with a VFX / grading workflow. I'd not recommend the use of REDLog. It worked great and served it's purpose, but REDLogFilm is the one to use today.
Hope that clarifies some things.
Graeme
Andrew Huse
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What is the benefit of 3D LUT over Redcode RAW? Do you even need LUT anymore now that we have redcode?
Gunleik Groven
REDuser Sponsor
NOT in disagreement on anything here. (and why should I...
)Just a note:
If you have a seriously underexposed image, redlog might come out better: You will sacrifice all the workflow benefits of redlogfilm by applying redlog, though.
Graeme Nattress
RED Problem Solver
Gunleik, prompted by your post I've just checked on a super-low light shot at ISO320 through REDLog and REDLogFilm and I can't say either has more shadow information. They both have enough precision to show all the shadow detail in the R3D.
Graeme
Graeme
Jake Bastian
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I'm working on a piece that I shot at 320 on the M sensor that I purposefully underexposed to hide the detail in the background and when I applied REDLogFilm to it all that detail showed right back up and I had to crush it out again! REDLogFilm gives you some serious shadow searching capabilities.
Graeme Nattress
RED Problem Solver
That's right Jake. Gunleik was talking about data precision. I checked, and both log curves have enough data precision for shadows.
Graeme
Graeme
Jake Bastian
Well-known member
That's really good to know. I'm actually doing this as a VFX test... Black tracking markers on my actress in lowlight. Gonna how precise a track I can get out of pftrack with it. Trying to see which format and what level of grade gives the best results as well... Looks like I'll have a chance to put that precision to work
Gunleik Groven
REDuser Sponsor
Sure. And I am not dissing Graemes curves. None of them actually.
Point is more like:
If you seem to have issues with your default approach, try a different one.
That is the cool thing about RED workflows, that different approaches are handily available when your first choice is not functioning to your satisfaction.
In my experience, there is every now and then a differnce between technichally right and practical solutions.
I was always a big hater of redspace. It was the most destructive version of RED gammas. I really disliked it.
But if it is the thing that looks the best... I will still dig it out...) (Not for offline/online but "straight to")
Unfortunately I am not at liberty to post examples of shots where I have chosen redlog over redlogFilm. And it is not really a big point, as it would just be nitpicking. The more general point is:
Don't give up on those problematic shots. Many of them will actually work pretty well if you look into them with a different approach.
Try that with a non-RAW image...)
The alternative options won't be there.
Graeme is the champ, whatever way you look at it...
Point is more like:
If you seem to have issues with your default approach, try a different one.
That is the cool thing about RED workflows, that different approaches are handily available when your first choice is not functioning to your satisfaction.
In my experience, there is every now and then a differnce between technichally right and practical solutions.
I was always a big hater of redspace. It was the most destructive version of RED gammas. I really disliked it.
But if it is the thing that looks the best... I will still dig it out...
) (Not for offline/online but "straight to")Unfortunately I am not at liberty to post examples of shots where I have chosen redlog over redlogFilm. And it is not really a big point, as it would just be nitpicking. The more general point is:
Don't give up on those problematic shots. Many of them will actually work pretty well if you look into them with a different approach.
Try that with a non-RAW image...
)The alternative options won't be there.
Graeme is the champ, whatever way you look at it...
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Graeme Nattress
RED Problem Solver
Can I quote you on that and frame it on my wall?
BTW - RLF and RL look different in the shadows due to the nature of those curves - but there's enough precision in either to map the code values to the other curve without loosing that precision. That can mean that in certain instances one can look better than the other, but both are capable of producing the same results without loss of precision.
Graeme
Gunleik Groven
REDuser Sponsor
Sure... I'll sign it, if that's of any help.
But I guess Jims signature is of slightly higher significance...
)Alexander Ibrahim
Well-known member
Sure... I'll sign it, if that's of any help.
But I guess Jims signature is of slightly higher significance...
Oh, I imagine Graeme is pretty happy with the signature he gets from Jim every couple of weeks or so.
I'll say that Graeme consistently impresses me with his detailed knowledge and dedication to all the problems Red users might face. I mean, he knows as much about Arri color science as anyone outside Arri- as an example.
Mark Toia
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This is the primary reason why RED is getting a bad name from clients when they see there images in an offline or grading suite for the first time.
I've been to 4 modern day (BIG) post houses in the last 3 months posting my jobs. (which I usually do in house but I've been Overseas posting in these cases)
The 4x I have walked in and seen my pictures I have just died!
What they did is transcode DPX's with on set LUTS from REDcolour or REC709 or something completely effected by burnt in Contrast/colours/whitebalances that was shot on set. etc.. which is very very hard to grade out.
The secret is to expell all that and start from the NEG base... ooops the R3D LOG base.
The same way we have done with 35mm for the last 20 years.
This think has what has saved me in POST. I pretend the R3D is NEG and post the same I have for the last 15 years. Problem fixed. If I have an issue with the shot, I go back to the R3D (like I would with the neg) regrade the info I needed from it. Same old system.. why change it, It wasnt broken.
The only problem is (alot) of people are not using the R3D's in this way. They are trying to grade what is already incamera graded. (like what ARRI LOGC PRORES are)
Post house and individuals transcode the same way for there AVID or FCP files with the same ugly looks generated on set.
They say they have been doing it this way for years!... It's no wonder people blame RED, when in fact is was just bad transcoding and nothing more.
So I call in all the POST techs and go through the best easiest way to get the best files from REDLOGFILM, REDLOG transcoding to all or any formats they require.
My method is this. Transcode everything to these settings . (Via baselight, RED CINE X. etc etc etc...
SET GAMMA to : REDLOGFILM, or REDLOG,
SET COLORSPACE to: to CAMERA RGB,
(to get even cleaner whites to start from, MAX out the SATURATION for viewing only, balance the kelvin control to get a (new) pure white balance, once happy with the balance then bring your saturation back to default. DONE.. PRESS RENDER and never look back.
All of a sudden the FCP & AVID guys are grading in the edit suites in pure LOG, The Flame guys have LOG, the Colorist can either grade these same log files or connect directly to the R3D's and have even more grading fun.
A lot of Colorists also don't set there grading tool settings to these settings, but if they do.. they will have the power and more.
I show every Post house I have gone to this method and all of a sudden, RED is AWESOME. There eyes light up!
Post production has always slowed the RED revolution. But all the tools are there to get the most from this camera.
LOGC PRO RES FILES is the only thing that saves Arr's arse in POST.
Once you export REDLOGFILM PRORES like I have just showed you and start grading, It smashes ARRI's LOGC format.
There is many ways to POST RED. This is one that serves me well, I edit in real time, grade in real time, export in realtime.... I kill it.
Have fun guys.
Some demos:
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/REDLOG_realtime_grading/Pro_res_in_real_time_(Car).mov
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/REDLOG_realtime_grading/Pro_res_in_real_time_(Face).mov
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/Dynamic_range/Dynamic range from a 4444 PRORES _ FROM RED.mov
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/Dynamic_range/REDMX_latitude_test..mov
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/FCP_3way_colour_correct/colour_key_RED.mov
EPIC X... where aaaaaaaaaaare youuuuuuuuuuuu......
AnthonyFlores
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jake blackstone
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Oh, I imagine Graeme is pretty happy with the signature he gets from Jim every couple of weeks or so.
I'll say that Graeme consistently impresses me with his detailed knowledge and dedication to all the problems Red users might face. I mean, he knows as much about Arri color science as anyone outside Arri- as an example.
Hm, I hope I don't get in trouble for this.
While at NAB at one of the demos I was present, I overheard couple of manufacturers talking. First, one complained of being screwed by another manufacturers, that had decided to break the rules and do ARRI RAW debayer in strictly GPU, which was expressly prohibited, but they did it anyway. They demoed ARRIRAW debayer in real time with only GPU. Then another manufacturer complained about the same thing with RED. They even said, that they had managed to do an almost real time debayer of Red RAW without technically breaking the GPU rule, but apparently it was just a clever trick. Something about multiple copies of libraries... I'm not an engineer, so I have no idea what that means. Anyway, they had mentioned, that it was very difficult to have a conversation with Gramme about any kind of SDK implementation, other than Red's way. I guess, it's not that surprising
But now I'm curious, Gramme, is it possible to do debayer in GPU?
jake blackstone
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I don't doubt, that it's happening and people still can't grasp the concept of metadata and RAW. And I do understand, that very often, as a DP, you don't have a choice of the post house. But at what point do you speak up and say, we need to go someplace else, where they know how to work with Red and who doesn't disrespects it? There are many talented and passionate colorists at those BIG places. I had worked at a few myself. But, frankly, Red and companies alike, unleashed a storm of new fast paced technology, that many of those professionals just don't want to spend time learning or too busy working. Too many colorists, that I know personally, can grade the hell out of the images, but at times they have no idea how those images got there. They know Log DPX, period. I repeat, not all, but unfortunately, too many do not know how to properly treat new electronic images. So, do your homework and be vigilant...