So... how do I do it?

[Gunleik Groven]

What they did is transcode DPX's with on set LUTS from REDcolour or REC709 or something completely effected by burnt in Contrast/colours/whitebalances that was shot on set. etc.. which is very very hard to grade out.

Yup, that was a worstcase scenario, pretty much triggered with the "grade on set" approach promoted first by SI and then RED in the early days.
Not taking the signachain and "what to do when" thing into account.

@ Jake & Mark

The lack of visual representation of the full DR on set combined with the DP's wish to make a "finnished" negative for many occations, can be a challenge.
The DP is above the colorist, right?

 

[jake blackstone]

Yup, that was a worstcase scenario, pretty much triggered with the "grade on set" approach promoted first by SI and then RED in the early days.
Not taking the signachain and "what to do when" thing into account.

@ Jake & Mark

The lack of visual representation of the full DR on set combined with the DP's wish to make a "finnished" negative for many occations, can be a challenge.
The DP is above the colorist, right?

I don't understand the point of "DP's wish to make a "finnished" negative". What DP thinks, that on set "look" is the basis of the finished grade? Yes, the on-set "look" should be and is used to create dailies for the editorial purposes. It can also ease the line of communication with the colorist, but once it's in the hands of the finishing colorist, you should let the colorist set the metadata as he sees fit. For one, it is usually very destructive and very heavy handed. I usually just start from scratch. For example, if the look calls for a cold blue "look", I'd adjust the color temperature. And that is the extent of it. But I wouldn't use crazy curves, that I usually get. In other words, you shoot, tell me what you want and I'll make you look good
Winning!

 

[Lorenzo Straight]

This is the primary reason why RED is getting a bad name from clients when they see there images in an offline or grading suite for the first time.
I've been to 4 modern day (BIG) post houses in the last 3 months posting my jobs. (which I usually do in house but I've been Overseas posting in these cases)
The 4x I have walked in and seen my pictures I have just died!

What they did is transcode DPX's with on set LUTS from REDcolour or REC709 or something completely effected by burnt in Contrast/colours/whitebalances that was shot on set. etc.. which is very very hard to grade out.

The secret is to expell all that and start from the NEG base... ooops the R3D LOG base.
The same way we have done with 35mm for the last 20 years.
This think has what has saved me in POST. I pretend the R3D is NEG and post the same I have for the last 15 years. Problem fixed. If I have an issue with the shot, I go back to the R3D (like I would with the neg) regrade the info I needed from it. Same old system.. why change it, It wasnt broken.
The only problem is (alot) of people are not using the R3D's in this way. They are trying to grade what is already incamera graded. (like what ARRI LOGC PRORES are)

Post house and individuals transcode the same way for there AVID or FCP files with the same ugly looks generated on set.
They say they have been doing it this way for years!... It's no wonder people blame RED, when in fact is was just bad transcoding and nothing more.

So I call in all the POST techs and go through the best easiest way to get the best files from REDLOGFILM, REDLOG transcoding to all or any formats they require.

My method is this. Transcode everything to these settings . (Via baselight, RED CINE X. etc etc etc...
SET GAMMA to : REDLOGFILM, or REDLOG,
SET COLORSPACE to: to CAMERA RGB,
(to get even cleaner whites to start from, MAX out the SATURATION for viewing only, balance the kelvin control to get a (new) pure white balance, once happy with the balance then bring your saturation back to default. DONE.. PRESS RENDER and never look back.

All of a sudden the FCP & AVID guys are grading in the edit suites in pure LOG, The Flame guys have LOG, the Colorist can either grade these same log files or connect directly to the R3D's and have even more grading fun.
A lot of Colorists also don't set there grading tool settings to these settings, but if they do.. they will have the power and more.

I show every Post house I have gone to this method and all of a sudden, RED is AWESOME. There eyes light up!

Post production has always slowed the RED revolution. But all the tools are there to get the most from this camera.

LOGC PRO RES FILES is the only thing that saves Arr's arse in POST.
Once you export REDLOGFILM PRORES like I have just showed you and start grading, It smashes ARRI's LOGC format.

There is many ways to POST RED. This is one that serves me well, I edit in real time, grade in real time, export in realtime.... I kill it.
Have fun guys.

Some demos:

http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/REDLOG_realtime_grading/Pro_res_in_real_time_(Car).mov
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/REDLOG_realtime_grading/Pro_res_in_real_time_(Face).mov
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/Dynamic_range/Dynamic range from a 4444 PRORES _ FROM RED.mov
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/Dynamic_range/REDMX_latitude_test..mov
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/FCP_3way_colour_correct/colour_key_RED.mov


EPIC X... where aaaaaaaaaaare youuuuuuuuuuuu......

Great examples Mark. Who would have thought it could be so easy to keep all the detail and play around, non destructively.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I don't understand the point of "DP's wish to make a "finnished" negative". What DP thinks, that on set "look" is the basis of the finished grade? Yes, the on-set "look" should be and is used to create dailies for the editorial purposes. It can also ease the line of communication with the colorist, but once it's in the hands of the finishing colorist, you should let the colorist set the metadata as he sees fit. For one, it is usually very destructive and very heavy handed. I usually just start from scratch. For example, if the look calls for a cold blue "look", I'd adjust the color temperature. And that is the extent of it. But I wouldn't use crazy curves, that I usually get. In other words, you shoot, tell me what you want and I'll make you look good
Winning!

Agreed!

Usually - and that works well on longer productions - an end-to end test for online and VFX clears up most issues and wishes...

But sometime there isn't time for that.

That is a good reason to publish tests...

 

[Kevin Marshall]

My method is this. Transcode everything to these settings . (Via baselight, RED CINE X. etc etc etc...
SET GAMMA to : REDLOGFILM, or REDLOG,
SET COLORSPACE to: to CAMERA RGB,
(to get even cleaner whites to start from, MAX out the SATURATION for viewing only, balance the kelvin control to get a (new) pure white balance, once happy with the balance then bring your saturation back to default. DONE.. PRESS RENDER and never look back.

Out of curiosity (and for the sake of learning), why Camera RGB over RedColor2?

 

[Jannard]

My method is this. Transcode everything to these settings . (Via baselight, RED CINE X. etc etc etc...
SET GAMMA to : REDLOGFILM, or REDLOG,
SET COLORSPACE to: to CAMERA RGB,
(to get even cleaner whites to start from, MAX out the SATURATION for viewing only, balance the kelvin control to get a (new) pure white balance, once happy with the balance then bring your saturation back to default. DONE.. PRESS RENDER and never look back.

All of a sudden the FCP & AVID guys are grading in the edit suites in pure LOG, The Flame guys have LOG, the Colorist can either grade these same log files or connect directly to the R3D's and have even more grading fun.
A lot of Colorists also don't set there grading tool settings to these settings, but if they do.. they will have the power and more.

I show every Post house I have gone to this method and all of a sudden, RED is AWESOME. There eyes light up!

Post production has always slowed the RED revolution. But all the tools are there to get the most from this camera.

LOGC PRO RES FILES is the only thing that saves Arr's arse in POST.
Once you export REDLOGFILM PRORES like I have just showed you and start grading, It smashes ARRI's LOGC format.

There is many ways to POST RED. This is one that serves me well, I edit in real time, grade in real time, export in realtime.... I kill it.
Have fun guys.

I would alter two things... 1st, agree with REDlogFilm (the improved version of REDlog) and 2nd, use REDcolor2 instead of CameraRGB. REDcolor2 corrects the sensors color imperfections. Adjust Saturation to taste and then hit the render button.

Jim

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

Jim - you had me at 'hello'.

 

[Mark Toia]

I would alter two things... 1st, agree with REDlogFilm (the improved version of REDlog) and 2nd, use REDcolor2 instead of CameraRGB. REDcolor2 corrects the sensors color imperfections. Adjust Saturation to taste and then hit the render button.

Jim

Yep.. Just tried it then. here is the test. (both LOG outputs show huge amounts of range)
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/REDLOG_realtime_grading/test_logs.mov

REDCOLOUR2 is good. Bit to colourful (for me).. but works well. lots of range as you would suspect.
I think I still prefer CAMERA RGB setting and re-whitebalance it. But REDCOLOR2 is designed for a good reason, I'm going to test it more first. but Im sure its great.
REDLOGFILM is you winner though. That rocks and saves the day every single time. I can be 5 stops out and still have a good image to play with.

Jim - you had me at 'hello'.

Exactly the same as what I just outlined above, but swap CAMERA RGB for REDCOLOR2...

 

[Subhadip Sen]

I don't understand, why is a transcode necessary at all? And why a lossy codec like ProRes? Unless of course, you are using FCP, in which case one must re-link to the original R3D in the grading/finishing software! I just cannot, in any way, justify the requirement for ProRes in any form, other than an editing proxy in software which can't handle full resolution R3D.

 

[Mark Toia]

Out of curiosity (and for the sake of learning), why Camera RGB over RedColor2?

For me Camera RGB seems to give me the flattest base image to grade from, low color, low contrast, everything is in there.
REDcolor2 looks equally as good but more colorful is all. I'd prefer to put the color in. By Jims comment above it seems to correct sensor imperfections.
I haven't seen any perfections as yet... but if he and team says there in there, then there must be.

I will be doing some big back to back tests over the next few days.. Just for myself.

 

[Mark Pugh]

Jim, why don't you disable all curves in the DPX export from RCX?
Make DPX export log-only.
Have a pop-up window warning of this when Export starts.
Problem solved instantly... I'm serious.

 

[Mark Toia]

I don't understand, why is a transcode necessary at all? And why a lossy codec like ProRes? Unless of course, you are using FCP, in which case one must re-link to the original R3D in the grading/finishing software! I just cannot, in any way, justify the requirement for ProRes in any form, other than an editing proxy in software which can't handle full resolution R3D.

And what's wrong with PRORES? . Zoom up a 2k-res uncompressed tiff from RED to 800%, then zoom up a 2k-res still from a 4444 PRO RES.. No difference at all.
We push PRO RES onto cinema screens all the time and you cannot pick the difference between that and the 200 million dollar movie playing next to it. running through the same 4k or 35mm projector...

Pixel peeping is geeks.

I just want real time editing, real time grading, real time everything.... not glitchy, staggered, frame dropping time line, rendering every time you change something, that just sucks.

The day I can drop an actual R3D directly into a timeline and edit & grade as smoothly and as quick as a 4444 PRORES file is the day I'll drop this work flow.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Mark, if you want to use cameraRGB you've decided that you want to handle colorimetry yourself. You may like the look of it for aesthetic reasons, but I'd not advise using it - you'll get much more accurate colours to start grading from if you use REDColor2. There is also no reason not to use REDLogFilm either.

Graeme

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Mark Pugh, disabling things automagically to force a particular workflow may make some sense, but it's not the right way to handle this kind of issue. In REDCine-X you can make a DPX export preset and a look preset where the look preset disables all bar white balance and ISO/FLUT, setting gamma to REDLogFilm and colour space to REDColor2 , making a great export option disabling all curves and things.

Graeme

 

[Mark Phelan]

If you are suggesting RedLogFilm as the gamma space to use, then why does the current Redcine-X (build 449) open with RedGamma 2 as the default setting? Seems it would be more logical to have the preferred settings always open initially.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Mark (too many Marks in this thread ) Log images look ugly! RG2 is a basic starting point look that's super easy to quick grade for dailies. RLF is what you export to send to a proper grading environment. Two uses - two curves.

Graeme

 

[Mark Phelan]

Mark (too many Marks in this thread ) Log images look ugly! RG2 is a basic starting point look that's super easy to quick grade for dailies. RLF is what you export to send to a proper grading environment. Two uses - two curves.

Graeme

Graeme, thanks. I'll Mark that down...

 

[Mark Pugh]

Mark Pugh, disabling things automagically to force a particular workflow may make some sense, but it's not the right way to handle this kind of issue.

Graeme

As someone who's walked into grading suites with DPXs created that have thrown away info in highlights (and it's clear I'm not alone) I think it's not a bad solution at all. Why have a baked-in look in a DPX that is heading to a grading session? It makes no sense to me. What situation can you forsee that would be helped with a baked-in look on a DPX from RedcineX?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Well, baked in DPXs are regularly used to make DCPs from, for instance. DPX is just a file format. Of course, the real answer is to encourage native R3D support, which works great when well implemented, and avoids these transcoding issues entirely.

Graeme

 

[shashbugu]

And what's wrong with PRORES? . Zoom up a 2k-res uncompressed tiff from RED to 800%, then zoom up a 2k-res still from a 4444 PRO RES.. No difference at all.
We push PRO RES onto cinema screens all the time and you cannot pick the difference between that and the 200 million dollar movie playing next to it. running through the same 4k or 35mm projector...

Pixel peeping is geeks.

I just want real time editing, real time grading, real time everything.... not glitchy, staggered, frame dropping time line, rendering every time you change something, that just sucks.

The day I can drop an actual R3D directly into a timeline and edit & grade as smoothly and as quick as a 4444 PRORES file is the day I'll drop this work flow.

For over a year I've been arguing this point endlessly all over reduser. Every test I seen showing charts of Arri vs Red or what have you always shows Red with REC709 cnoking all the glory out of an R3D file. I even kept pushing Red and Co to do away with the in camera proxies and replace them with prores 4444, alongside R3D's. REDlogfilm, Redcolor2 is superior color science. Transcoding to 12 bit log prores 4444 from it will give you spectacular 2k log images, which truly speaking we all master with (4k different story). Now there definetly is a tiny bit of resolution loss compared to native R3D's you might probably never see unless you have a super hi res pro monitor.