Should RED be using an Adobe CC Upgrade Model?

[Zeb B]

Dog with a bone here . . .

So I get that Hardware is more lumpy in upgrade costs with spikes now and then. I own a condo (large piece of hardware) in Portland that has HOA fees of $600/m. That takes care of the basic needs of the building and a little bit goes into a rainy day "Reserve Account" to cover extraordinary expenses. However, if the elevator breaks and needs $100K in repairs then management might have to issue a Special Assessment to all the owners since that was not in the budget.

Soooooo . . . .

RED offers a monthly subscription plan, as I described so eloquently above early in the thread, and when a major upgrade comes about they can do the maths to figure out what the Special Assessment is for each of the different body types and subscription level. RED can figure out what a good base monthly rate is today by looking at their 5 year plan and guesstimating costs by projecting out expense trends.

So it's not either The Pig in the Python or Subscription only. It's a both via a hybrid

I think the Membership Has Benefits - Loyalty Points - CC concept is proven and worth kicking around between the creative marketing folks @RED.

We have been accused as being Cult Members by those unenlightened heathens using devil tools like Arri . . . give us a program that allows us to demonstrate our deep faith and loyalty to the RED . . . and allows a more even cash flow for us all ;-)

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Dog with a bone here . . .

So I get that Hardware is more lumpy in upgrade costs with spikes now and then. I own a condo (large piece of hardware) in Portland that has HOA fees of $600/m. That takes care of the basic needs of the building and a little bit goes into a rainy day "Reserve Account" to cover extraordinary expenses. However, if the elevator breaks and needs $100K in repairs then management might have to issue a Special Assessment to all the owners since that was not in the budget.

Soooooo . . . .

RED offers a monthly subscription plan, as I described so eloquently above early in the thread, and when a major upgrade comes about they can do the maths to figure out what the Special Assessment is for each of the different body types and subscription level. RED can figure out what a good base monthly rate is today by looking at their 5 year plan and guesstimating costs by projecting out expense trends.

So it's not either The Pig in the Python or Subscription only. It's a both via a hybrid

I think the Membership Has Benefits - Loyalty Points - CC concept is proven and worth kicking around between the creative marketing folks @RED.

We have been accused as being Cult Members by those unenlightened heathens using devil tools like Arri . . . give us a program that allows us to demonstrate our deep faith and loyalty to the RED . . . and allows a more even cash flow for us all ;-)

Yeah, but there's a HOA that battles it out when special assessments are needed. How much, who gets to benefit from it first, and who gets the benefit later, who is inconvenienced by it, who has to make accomodations for it, on and on.

We don't need more battles among redusers now, do we?

 

[Jarred Land]

Zeb.. not going to happen.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Yeah, but there's a HOA that battles it out when special assessments are needed. How much, who gets to benefit from it first, and who gets the benefit later, who is inconvenienced by it, who has to make accomodations for it, on and on.

We don't need more battles among redusers now, do we?

Right, Red isn't a co-op. It isn't even public.

 

[Zeb B]

Zeb.. not going to happen.

I'll take that as a strong "maybe"

 

[Elsie N]

Dog with a bone here . . .

So I get that Hardware is more lumpy in upgrade costs with spikes now and then. I own a condo (large piece of hardware) in Portland that has HOA fees of $600/m. That takes care of the basic needs of the building and a little bit goes into a rainy day "Reserve Account" to cover extraordinary expenses. However, if the elevator breaks and needs $100K in repairs then management might have to issue a Special Assessment to all the owners since that was not in the budget.

Soooooo . . . .

RED offers a monthly subscription plan, as I described so eloquently above early in the thread, and when a major upgrade comes about they can do the maths to figure out what the Special Assessment is for each of the different body types and subscription level. RED can figure out what a good base monthly rate is today by looking at their 5 year plan and guesstimating costs by projecting out expense trends.

So it's not either The Pig in the Python or Subscription only. It's a both via a hybrid

I think the Membership Has Benefits - Loyalty Points - CC concept is proven and worth kicking around between the creative marketing folks @RED.

We have been accused as being Cult Members by those unenlightened heathens using devil tools like Arri . . . give us a program that allows us to demonstrate our deep faith and loyalty to the RED . . . and allows a more even cash flow for us all ;-)

A suggestion... re-bury the bone... and forget where you buried it. '-)

 

[Zeb B]

A suggestion... re-bury the bone... and forget where you buried it. '-)

Funy how people had a strong negative reaction to the financial model RED presented at NAB . . . but have no workable alternatives or the even desire to imagine a better system.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Perhaps it's worth a conversation to have upgrade costs be at a fixed ongoing monthly cost so those in business can have a predictable cash flow. Let's say if RED upgrades are an average of $15K per year, then just have an auto-pay of $1250/month. That provides RED a steady funding source for R&D and those who want to participate in having the latest in RED releases get on the program. Those who don't can be happy with buying at the one time bi-annual (every other year) cost of the above example rate of a one time $30K when they feel the need to upgrade.

Oh... Gawd... NO!!!


The CC model sucks balls.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Funy how people had a strong negative reaction to the financial model RED presented at NAB . . . but have no workable alternatives or the even desire to imagine a better system.

People had a strong negative reaction because many were hoping for a more amazing incentive I guess. Many were hoping for more indie-budget friendly offerings and not just a new top-tier camera system positioned above the EPIC. I'm not saying that RED couldn't improve... I think they could benefit from having a more concise information outlet and more hard specs and info before taking orders. But the pace of development is erratic and advancements are not linear. They're lacking all the hard numbers on Weapon because they're still determining the finalized numbers. To ask for lineal payment terms to help people budget, while also locking people into a system, is no good. So what happens if I pay RED $1250/month for 18 months and then they release details about the next update and I don't want it? Do I lose my money when I walk away? Was I subscribing to the usage of my camera equipment? If the answer is no to either of those questions, then why was I giving them the money anyway? Why not set aside a monthly allotment of what I can afford and then, when I feel I'm ready to make an upgrade, I can do so within my budget? As in what most [successful] businesses already do...

Sorry, but if a company wants my money, they have to show me the product.

if there were any realistic alternative to Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, etc... I would kick Adobe to the curb.

 

[Jarred Land]

I'll take that as a strong "maybe"

Ha ha Zev you are awesome... really.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

mmmm.. what is exactly between those 2? 50+14/2 = $32k. Fits MG Weapon.. Too much? Epic-X Dragon= $24k. There are nice steps in the entire range. Its actually a pretty great lineup with an option for everyone.

Today there are good options for everyone. I'm just saying if the Scarlet tier gets some love it might surpass the Epic-X Dragon bracket much like how in many ways Scarlet Dragon surpassed Epic-X MX which would put the Epic-X Dragon customers in this weird middle ground where they "upgrade" to Scarlet v3 or whatever is on the roadmap.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Just for fun… anyone who thinks the camera doesn't matter should watch this.

Viral Thread

Just for fun, folks. And a few laughs perhaps.

 

[Zeb B]

People had a strong negative reaction because many were hoping for a more amazing incentive I guess. Many were hoping for more indie-budget friendly offerings and not just a new top-tier camera system positioned above the EPIC. I'm not saying that RED couldn't improve... I think they could benefit from having a more concise information outlet and more hard specs and info before taking orders. But the pace of development is erratic and advancements are not linear. They're lacking all the hard numbers on Weapon because they're still determining the finalized numbers. To ask for lineal payment terms to help people budget, while also locking people into a system, is no good. So what happens if I pay RED $1250/month for 18 months and then they release details about the next update and I don't want it? Do I lose my money when I walk away? Was I subscribing to the usage of my camera equipment? If the answer is no to either of those questions, then why was I giving them the money anyway? Why not set aside a monthly allotment of what I can afford and then, when I feel I'm ready to make an upgrade, I can do so within my budget? As in what most [successful] businesses already do...

Sorry, but if a company wants my money, they have to show me the product.

if there were any realistic alternative to Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, etc... I would kick Adobe to the curb.

In my view RED was about a week late with concise information. If they had the Saturday 18th PDF available on the eve of NAB opening (Sunday 12th) there would have been a way better Brand buzz on the NAB floor. But in the end who cares?? . . . WCF 8K sold out and the true RED faithful bitch up a storm then . . . adapt to whatever is presented.

The other thing a subscription model does is instill discipline into the innovation progress. If you know you have to deliver regular results to a paying customer base then there is pressure to perform. As it is RED does whatever whenever because they can. There's no one to answer to so it's take or leave it.

Say what you want about Adobe CC. They make the best in class on a wide range of products. Like I said earlier: if you are any good with an Adobe product - you can pay off your annual CC subscription in one day. They charge $120/year for their Photographer Plan which includes Photoshop and LightRoom. If you can't make $120/day using these tools then you truly suck at the craft and should do something else.

Edit: I disagree with "pace of development is erratic and advancements are not linear". Maybe at some companies without a clear 5 year plan it is - but basic digital technology is linear. Anyone have a Moore's Law chart for Sensor Progress over the last 10 years? Bet it's close to this:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ansistor_Count_and_Moore's_Law_-_2011.svg.png

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

In my view RED was about a week late with concise information. If they had the Saturday 18th PDF available on the eve of NAB opening (Sunday 12th) there would have been a way better Brand buzz on the NAB floor. But in the end who cares?? . . . WCF 8K sold out and the true RED faithful bitch up a storm then . . . adapt to whatever is presented.

Yeah, I agree. I think they could have nailed down the PDF and marketing literature in time for the show. I know they like cutting it close, flying by the seat of their pants at the last minute and all that, but they're a big deal in the camera world now. People want to see marketing gravy, even if that's all it is.

Say what you want about Adobe CC. They make the best in class on a wide range of products. Like I said earlier: if you are any good with an Adobe product - you can pay off your annual CC subscription in one day. They charge $120/year for their Photographer Plan which includes Photoshop and LightRoom. If you can't make $120/day using these tools then you truly suck at the craft and should do something else.

Totally logical and true, especially from an individual or independent user perspective. My problem with CC is not in regards to that usage scenario. I'm not going to rehash the issues with other usage situations because it's been so over and done with and there is apparently no interest in changing over in Adobe land. Adobe has even admitted this has really impacted their business and volume licensing sales as to those users, CC now costs quite a bit more than what they were paying. But they still feel it's for the best in the long run. And it probably is from their perspective.


Have to agree with Jarred though. You're still awesome. I missed out not being able to hang with you at NAB this year.

 

[Zeb B]

That whole chaos management vibe works when you're a kid or a start-up . . . but RED is like one year younger than Facebook.

Don't get me wrong - love RED and the RU community.

 

[Corey_O]

That whole chaos management vibe works when you're a kid or a start-up . . . but RED is like one year younger than Facebook.

Don't get me wrong - love RED and the RU community.

and who woulda thunk a camera create by red would make a film about the creation of Facebook!

 

[Kyle Dones]

RED, please don't do this.

I like you the way you are…and That's why I love you unconditionally

 

[Zeb B]

I know they decide sometimes on the fly, so any preparation might not work.

My idea would have been two pull down menus: (Similar set up as the cinematography tools on their web-site.)

a) What camera do you have.
b) What camera do you want.

As a result you get the individual options and prices. No confusion.

So everyone can get his/her path and investment plan.

That makes waaaay too much sense. Never happen since it's too linear and solves the problem without 6000 RU posts ;-)

 

[Kyle Dones]

totally shortened quote but +1 to Jarred's points below

"We actually are very happy with how things are going. You wouldn't think so reading the complaints here, but the reality is that Weapon has far, far exceeded our expectations by an incredible amount in its short week of existence.

Weapon was made for a certain market and that market has embraced it. It is not for everyone...

And yes, some people felt left out and hurt because it was out of reach...We haven't forgotten about any of our customers. The Scarlet owners.. your time will come. You need to remember that you don't know our roadmap...

...We made it easy for customers to get to Dragon not just for Weapon, but for the future.

...designed Epic in 2008 and started shipping it in 2010 which is like a lifetime in this camera world. We had to update the body to accommodate technologies that didn't exist when Epic was conceived. The body has had one hell of a run...

... Weapon. It is incredible. It was the right move for RED, and filled a nice little hole on the top of the mountain...is better for everyone.

...there are rental houses... they kind of offer the same solution."

I didn't read this response before i posted earlier…but this is one of those things that makes that unconditional love so sweet.

 

[Zeb B]

totally shortened quote but +1 to Jarred's points below

"We actually are very happy with how things are going. You wouldn't think so reading the complaints here, but the reality is that Weapon has far, far exceeded our expectations by an incredible amount in its short week of existence.

Weapon was made for a certain market and that market has embraced it. It is not for everyone...

And yes, some people felt left out and hurt because it was out of reach...We haven't forgotten about any of our customers. The Scarlet owners.. your time will come. You need to remember that you don't know our roadmap...

...We made it easy for customers to get to Dragon not just for Weapon, but for the future.

...designed Epic in 2008 and started shipping it in 2010 which is like a lifetime in this camera world. We had to update the body to accommodate technologies that didn't exist when Epic was conceived. The body has had one hell of a run...

... Weapon. It is incredible. It was the right move for RED, and filled a nice little hole on the top of the mountain...is better for everyone.

...there are rental houses... they kind of offer the same solution."

I didn't read this response before i posted earlier…but this is one of those things that makes that unconditional love so sweet.

"Unconditional" anything is a lazy and dangerous concept my friend. I live by: "Question the Answers"