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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sensors...

Jarred Land said:
Well Done Phil... Since you did such a good job summarizing.. I will throw you a bone and answer your first point's question. The Dragon upgrade will be 6144 x 3160.
Click to expand...

I can't count that high.
 
Jarred Land said:
Well Done Phil... Since you did such a good job summarizing.. I will throw you a bone and answer your first point's question. The Dragon upgrade will be 6144 x 3160.
Click to expand...
Can someone do an overlay that shows how many 1080's that is?
 
Jon Carr said:
Wow, resolution is king...
Click to expand...

I get why some of us (me included) wouldn't mind an optional feature / module of oversampling that much megapixels into a pristine 4K image in-camera (similar to what F65 does, I guess), but if you're expecting some reframing in post, digital zooms or big time stabilization... then I bet you'd loooove 6K as much as 16 stops of DR and clean 2000 iso.
 
Jarred Land said:
Well Done Phil... Since you did such a good job summarizing.. I will throw you a bone and answer your first point's question. The Dragon upgrade will be 6144 x 3160.
Click to expand...

That should be a very welcome increase for the stills guys too. 19+ megapixels.
 
Vadim Bobkovsky said:
I get why some of us (me included) wouldn't mind an optional feature / module of oversampling that much megapixels into a pristine 4K image in-camera (similar to what F65 does, I guess), but if you're expecting some reframing in post, digital zooms or big time stabilization... then I bet you'd loooove 6K as much as 16 stops of DR and clean 2000 iso.
Click to expand...

I believe the Sony F65 records the full resolution of the sensor at 16-bit RAW -- they don't actually call this recording 8K or 4K at this point -- the down sampling to 4K happens in the conversion to RGB later, or if you record 1080P, then the camera itself down samples and converts to RGB... But I don't think the camera records 4K RAW or 4K RGB.
 
Jarred Land said:
Well Done Phil... Since you did such a good job summarizing.. I will throw you a bone and answer your first point's question. The Dragon upgrade will be 6144 x 3160.
Click to expand...

Heh! Thanks Jarred! And to quote myself way back from April 15th 2012:

Phil Holland said:
I'm guessing it's going to land in the 6.14K-ish range.
Click to expand...

I guessed how many jelly beans were in that jar :)


I had a feeling Red was going this route and there is a very real reason for it. I've had my fair share of experience dealing with digital film scanners. If we are talking about say the Northlight film scanner it actually scanned at 6k resolution. 6144x4096 to be precise. This is extremely important as this is pretty much where optically speaking S35 film tops out resolution wise. Meaning typical film stock scanned at 6k produces "globular" grain and is larger than individual pixels. Scaled down to 4k yields a very nice image with good resolution. 6k has been the golden number when it comes to matching or out performing the cinema standard, Super 35mm.

On top of this, the most modern motion picture film is usually being measured at approximately 15 stops. Dragon is teasing 16 stops right now.

This is important. As Jim and Jarred have noted, Dragon is going to be very significant. So significant that it essentially will be the first true digital film replacement option on the market. Both in terms of resolution and dynamic range.

This is exactly why I personally believe in what Red is doing.
 
Phil Holland said:
I had a feeling Red was going this route and there is a very real reason for it. I've had my fair share of experience dealing with digital film scanners. If we are talking about say the Northlight film scanner it actually scanned at 6k resolution. 6144x4096 to be precise.
Click to expand...

Well 1024 (1k) x 6k = 6144. So it's not exactly a coincidence. ;)
 
Was curious about these new sensor dimension numbers. When the Dragon was originally announced, we were given some preliminary specs for the sensor... 6K, 5 micron pixel size, 30mm x 15.8mm. Using these figures, the sensor tracked with the 1.89:1 aspect ratio being utilized on the Epic equipped with a MX sensor. 1.89 also fits nicely into DCI standards, all is well in the universe.

With the new information from Jim and Jarred of pixel dimensions of 6144 x 3160 for the Dragon, that now equals a 1.94:1 aspect ratio. No big deal, it could be for some look around area when framing, but then why bother getting an even 1K increment number horizontally (as Gavin pointed out) but not vertically... To fit the 1.89:1 standard, we would need vertical resolution of 3240 and a sensor height of 16.2mm...

Without having the sensor to fulfill the hunger in my heart, these numbers have to keep my mind occupied. Was just scratching my head over the new aspect ratio...
 
Michel Hafner said:
A Mr. Peltonen is not impressed:
http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/10/red-jannard-dragon-sensor-best-dr/#disqus_thread
...
Click to expand...


People are always jealous of the folks getting it served up fresh with benefits. RED allows you to grow as a camera person, with the gear while not getting money stolen from them by selling a new model, instead like Jim said a new sensor. Right there... That should be enough to realize one of the many differences between Sony & RED. RED is the Future, maybe you can call me a fan-boy, ok, I'll take it, but I know how I feel about my gear, and I wont shoot anything for myself, or anyone else really on anything but my own rig which is an Epic M. Thank you Jim, Thank you Jarred and the Bomb Squad. Love you Whitney, be in touch soon.

- Paul.
 
Christopher Probst said:
Was just scratching my head over the new aspect ratio...
Click to expand...

The dimensions of the sensor were listed as 30.7mm x 15.8mm. Depending on what ends up being utilized, this looks closer to VistaVision aspect ratio. Nothing wrong with that in my book. : )

Best,
lael
 
LCamak said:
The dimensions of the sensor were listed as 30.7mm x 15.8mm. Depending on what ends up being utilized, this looks closer to VistaVision aspect ratio. Nothing wrong with that in my book. : )

Best,
lael
Click to expand...

VistaVision is the same as 8-perf FF35, 36mm x 24mm... Which is 1.5 : 0. So to move from 1.89 to 1.94 is not a move closer to VistaVision.
 
This is why we LOVE RED, not just because of the Mad Scientists, or the crazy goals that gets set and reached, or the fantastic customer service, or the unreal DEALS, such as this SENSOR upgrade, but also because we have, not just a camera manufacturer, but a FIGHTER at the driving seat which will continue to push forward full speed... ;)
 
Phil, remember that film scanners don't use bayer patterns, they have 'true' pixels.
Northlight uses linear TDI arrays that overlap RG and B pixels.
The Dragon is a welcome upgrade, as the rendered and a properly de mosaic-ed image should be darned close to 4K real world resolution.
Also remember that 4K theater projectors are also 'true' pixels. The weak link in the chain has been cameras. Dragon solves that for the 4K aficionados.

Phil Holland said:
Heh! Thanks Jarred! And to quote myself way back from April 15th 2012:



I guessed how many jelly beans were in that jar :)


I had a feeling Red was going this route and there is a very real reason for it. I've had my fair share of experience dealing with digital film scanners. If we are talking about say the Northlight film scanner it actually scanned at 6k resolution. 6144x4096 to be precise. This is extremely important as this is pretty much where optically speaking S35 film tops out resolution wise. Meaning typical film stock scanned at 6k produces "globular" grain and is larger than individual pixels. Scaled down to 4k yields a very nice image with good resolution. 6k has been the golden number when it comes to matching or out performing the cinema standard, Super 35mm.

On top of this, the most modern motion picture film is usually being measured at approximately 15 stops. Dragon is teasing 16 stops right now.

This is important. As Jim and Jarred have noted, Dragon is going to be very significant. So significant that it essentially will be the first true digital film replacement option on the market. Both in terms of resolution and dynamic range.

This is exactly why I personally believe in what Red is doing.
Click to expand...
 
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