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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

scarlett competitors in near future

Stuart English said:
Adding a 4:2:2 codec sounds nice, but does the broadcast community need yet another LONG GOP MPEG 1/3" integrated lens camera?
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Simple answer.

No.

RED CODE RAAAAWWW!!!!
 
The propietary filtering , new de-bayer?, seems interesting too. Sometimes this stuff seems to pop up in a sort of 'suprise!' non-linear way. But I engineered for a convention dealing with consumer electronics long ago and they were in some ways so advanced compared to the current pro market. Because of the market size so much development money goes there. Cell phone cameras and the like. I wonder sometimes how much of that knowledge/technique gets applied and 'enlarged' to pro products.
 
Subhadip Sen said:
Unfortunately, Philip mentions that it is only a concept and won't be available any time soon. Still, who knows? They seem to have a (partially) working prototype up-and-running.
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Sounds familiar. :ihih:
 
Jim Retar said:
Whoever designed it must have been in a rush... they seem to have stuck a 5" monitor to their wife's hairdryer and bolted on a zoom lens.
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Well, another company I can think of designed their effort modeled on a brick....

I still maintain Aaton have the best ergonomics
 
The Canon, although working, is a concept with no plans to make it. Like a fancy concept car at a motor show.

It's not a RED killer in the slightest
 
Ok.. I just saw that Canon concept 4k on Engadget and I have a question... with attitude...

Why make concept products at all? What the hell? Do or don't do! They show a product that if they actually made would be a reasonable competition to red (great competition right now since the scarlet isn't out yet), and then go on to say "oh but we'll never make this product". Then why show it? What's the freaking point? It is a sexy looking camera body, you know there is a market for it, and obviously it's possible to make it cause you have a prototype.. so why not make it? If red's doing it then why can't canon do it too? (cost prohibitive?)

It's sort of what they did at the beginning with the 5D when it shot 1080p video but .. not .. quite.. exactly the way the consumer wanted. I went to someone in the camera section at NAB/or/CES and asked them about it and shooting digital 'film' and they got mad at me saying that it's a still camera that shoots video. Not a video camera. Apparently they had been hassled by wannabe film-makers all week who saw it as a cheap solution. And finally after enough complaints from people they got their sh-tuff together and have 'decent' cameras that shoot all the frame rates we want. (Albeit from a red perspective not good enough.)

I'm going to risk being labeled by red as someone with a 'bad attitud'e who could be 'refused service'.. and speak my mind here. I've held back a lot for that reason and another which was that at one point I was trying to get hired by Red, interviewed there and everything, was waiting for them to move to vegas... but its never going to happen so whatever...

I'll also point out that no matter what I say I'm still a huge fan. I want a scarlet so bad and have for YEARS. YEARS we're talking here. YEARS! As in.. I've watched my daughter grow from being in a high chair to starting kindergarden - all while waiting for a scarlet camera. As in.. we had a white president when I first saw the machined camera body at NAB and heard the slogan 3k for 3k. And I don't wait for years to buy crap I just go out and buy it.

So.. the thing is you could say the same thing about red with this scarlet. Do or don't do! I'm seriously impatient lately with regard to the Scarlet and it frustrates the hell out of me. Red's marketing plan has worked because I have not purchased a canon or any other camera. I've just gone without and (cough!) take a lot of video with my iPhone. No longer. The veil was lifted for me over this feature 21 thing. Where Jim sort of admitted that originally feature 21 was a mistake. Like they released the list and accidentally left number 21 as "something interesting goes here", which is the kind of thing I would write when making a list.. and then everyone made a big freaking deal out of it cause we're all these crazy cult followers. So Red played along and said... "oh yeah we meant to do that.. um.. yeah.. its so big we can't even tell you about it yet." And all the while internally they just said "we'll figure out something big to put in there sometime before the real release - we have all the way until summer of 2009 do figure it out". Deny it?

Then Jim finally revealed feature 21 but in reference to Epic - then admitted that it was all B.S. Here's Jim's actual quote:

"I guess the original post was a Scarlet post. At that time #21 was just a mistake. Since I forgot what I posted and what it was in reference to, I just thought this new magic HDR should go there since it is so cool. We are trying to see if we can implement it in Scarlet... but no promises today."

So the whole thing is a scam then? Feature #21, which everyone drooled over because that's the only attitude you're allowed to have on reduser.net, was just a mistake and isn't anything secret that red knew about when they wrote that list. In fact, HDR Stills was already on the list in #31.. but this is different because it's "magic" HDR.

Look.. ban me if you want. Put me on the do not hire list - which I'm probably already on. Refuse to sell me product. I'll still buy the scarlet when it comes out. You'll either take my 5 grand or I'll find a friend to buy it for me. I believe in the camera, I just am tired of all the games and all the waiting. I know it takes a long time to design a camera like this. It's actually amazing that you're doing it. I know that your whole marketing scheme is based on "everything changes - count on it!" But what the hell? How is this any different that canon showing us a cool prototype and then saying "we're never going to make it?" I guess the difference is that you're saying that you are making it.. but just stringing us along year after year.

I'm ordering a 60D! When the scarlet comes out I'll buy that too. I have a family car and I have a sports car. It's no different. I'm not saying that the quality will be the same - obviously not. I'm not saying that Red isn't making an amazing camera or that their whole feature list is BS - clearly only an item or two was them saying to themselves "we'll be able to figure out how to do that, put it on the list". I am saying that I'm not buying into the waiting game any longer and I'm done defending them to everyone.

If a scarlet comes to market and is still reasonably priced I'll buy it. That's all there is.
 
I hear ya, micheal. Many more are in the same line of thinking and frustration.

I see the difference between RED and Canon, in regards to showing off a prototype, is RED actually really believes in the Scarlet and the nearing DSMC release. Things that RED have gained as a direct result to showing an early prototype is the feedback they received from the User community (RED/Scarlet User).

By people voicing their concerns and desires, RED heard what the public wanted (interchangeable lenses on the Scarlet, fully interchangeable systems to go from the Scarlet 1.0 to the EPIC or from the first generation to future generation Scarlets (or it's equivalent).

Though RED has been awful at predicting the timing on delivery (admittedly so), I remember that they are going where no one has gone before and have as a result obtained a few hiccups along the long and winding path.

Looking back at some of the archives and the early stages of the conceptualization really brings a few things back into focus on how far of a journey RED has been on. Also, maybe not for many others, I see it as a great time to reflect on how RED did something new by opening the developmental discussions to the public rather than keeping it all in-house with their few engineers.

P.S. Some have claimed to say that I'm an optimist...I guess I can't help it... :p
 
First Canon can't make that camera, it does not even have the ability to record (no on board recording) it's just sending a feed to the 4k tv. and most of the components are in a box below the camera including fans for cooling so they can't pull off this tech without a tether and a clunky box under it. But that's was not the point of this camera, it was built to show off their 4k tv's with cameras of their own (as well to show off future concept camera's revolving around medical and industrial use as well as the ultimate "soccer mom" cam someone else's words not mine).

Second #21 was an honest mistake. At least Jim admitted it too us rather than lying and claiming it was some lame feature (plus who knows Jim my just be throwing us off.....doubtful though). the issue is not reds marketing but how we all take and spread it, half the worst rumors and let downs have been built up and created by the public. It's wild though I know most are adults I feel sometimes most people turn into young children when dealing with Red, irrationally mad or ungrateful and disrespectful. I can't imagine how these people interact with other businesses or institutions in this world. (not directed at anyone in particular)

Red has been nice enough to let us in the door, to see the process and hear about the updates. I realized that we were lucky but that did not mean I was holding everything waiting for a product with an estimated launch and no working prototypes. If red was a normal company all there would be is the Red One, epic would be a rumor about now maybe a little more but not much. Some would prefer this way, I on the other hand do not, because you have a choice...... ignore the marketing and wait for the shipping announcement and make your decision.... when the camera exists. Or.... you follow the process and stay up to date if you like either way it's up to you. That's the beauty of this is we can choose and we are aware of better camera alternatives rather than waiting for yet another small step up in the slow incremental release of cameras we have seen from the other big companies. if it weren't for red and their marketing we would have no reason to ask for more, and without scarlet most of us (on the lower end) would feel Red is too far away from us to consider and probably talk negatively about it in defense of our own overpriced low on features cameras we bought and I would still be looking at upgrading to yet another 6-8k camera that will be obsolete in two maybe one years. No matter what product you get or buy into it's about getting what you need and only that and making the most of it.

live passionately yet rationally and keep on shooting

edit: PS if you had projects you should rent or buy not push them off, but if you had nothing pressing to shoot at least you waited past the 7d and t2i and got the 60d which is the happy medium for filmmakers, I bought the t2i and now ..... well lets just say I'm looking forward to being a Red customer .... but I can wait until it's right.
 
EPIC and Scarlet

EPIC and Scarlet

I know that your whole marketing scheme is based on "everything changes - count on it!" But what the hell? How is this any different that canon showing us a cool prototype and then saying "we're never going to make it?"
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The difference is we really are making EPIC and Scarlet. These are just incredibly complex programs, but we are almost there...

b.t.w remember when a 4K cinema camera recording to a CF card was a total scam? Well that was certainly worth the wait :-)
 
Stuart English said:
The difference is we really are making EPIC and Scarlet. These are just incredibly complex programs, but we are almost there...

b.t.w remember when a 4K cinema camera recording to a CF card was a total scam? Well that was certainly worth the wait :-)
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Thanks Stuart for the many countless hours of sweat and perseverance you've been giving.
 
Stephen Matthews said:
Second #21 was an honest mistake. At least Jim admitted it too us rather than lying and claiming it was some lame feature
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9 months later yes, after countless threads, posts and people asking Jim and the team... like a child waiting for a christmas present... "what is #21, what is #21, what is #21".

Regarding delays, I think RED know they are probably nearing last chance saloon (with the cheaper line at least). Something will come out in the next 12 months that will turn alot of heads and they must be aware that is likely to happen. AF-100 will be the start.

Scarlet this year = market domination though.
 
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Don't get me wrong guys. I'll be the first in line to buy a scarlet when it comes out (if they let me that is). But I just wish that Red had been more honest with us along the way. Stephen I know you want to believe that #21 was an honest mistake. But the mistake was made back when they released that list with a temporary "put something cool here" left in and then decided to run with it and take their fans for fools. It was a way to keep up excitement and they had no idea what they were going to stick there. And those kinds of decisions eventually come to light and reveal something about the integrity of the person who made the decision. Red are masters at keeping us on the hook, and even now I want to believe and MOSTLY do believe that it will eventually come out. I'll even bet that the moment I get the canon in my hands they'll announce some new step towards the release. But that fear has kept me from buying other gear. Which is just silly. It's a weird type of control that they have over their fans. To not spend 1500 now on a 60D so that I can hold out another year for a scarlet .. I just can't do that.

"Oh just rent a red one." Look, unlike a lot of people here I know what I am. I'm a very talented editor and a decent shooter.. but I'm not making a movie today. If I were I'd rent whatever I could afford. To me EVERYTHING I shoot should be the highest quality. I made a video for my kid's k4 class at the end of last year. I borrowed a 5D for that and it came out great. Narrow depth of field. Real cool look. There were things I didn't like about the camera. And the whole time I wished I was shooting in 3k or 4k. Because when that class graduates from high school I'll have an awesome video to play.

So I'm the guy who will be shooting my vacation on Red. I want instant access to pick it up and shoot whenever I feel like it. I was the first to own an HDV camera and made short films with it and was editing it in FCP before they had HDV support. Had to do a bit of hacking on that one. (Stuart maybe you got the workflow job I applied for) Of course if I was shooting a commercial I'd rent what I needed.. obviously. It misses the point.

And another obvious statement that I don't disagree with is that red is doing amazing things. It's hard to believe and easy to understand why they'd run into obstacles and why things would take longer than they expected. Completely agree.

The point is.. red, what's the big deal.. just tell us the truth going forward. And I think they are more now. The more humble comments from Jim lately about things taking longer have been a nice change. We all want the camera and when it comes out we'll get it. But in the mean time I'm getting something before my vacation gets here so I can have beautiful footage of it. And later on ebay I can probably get at least 80% of what I paid for it.
 
Michael Smith said:
... and then decided to run with it and take their fans for fools. It was a way to keep up excitement and they had no idea what they were going to stick there.
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I'm reading your comments and nodding my head a lot. I completely identify with your feelings about a whole lot of things here, but I think that this characterization might just be taking things a bit too personally.

It was a simple omission, but Jim knew he could make good on it eventually. They were on a roll, and so he rolled with it.

I would bet you a Scarlet that once you have your new camera, you won't feel the least bit foolish.
 
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