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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet...

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Scott Brown said:
Epic NEEDS to be $21,000 different from Scarlet for it have a chance of selling in volume. As it stands, It makes much more sense to buy 4 Scarlets instead of one Epic!!!
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Not if you are in the rental business.

Now ... if you are a production company - and you produce a TV show for Discovery or another cable network ... like ... Axe Men, Deadliest Catch or Ice Road Truckers or something - YES - buy a bunch of Scarlets.

The bar is rising for digital cinema. 5K is actually a TON more pixels than 4K. Seeing 5K EPIC w/HDRx™ on the big screen vs. other camera systems ... the choice will be obvious.

If EPIC was available TODAY at $56,000 - I think you would be surprised how many RED would sell overnight. Compare to body price of Alexa, F35, etc.
 
Meryem, I suppose you're comparing Epic to the Scarlet S35? Then the price difference is actually $20 000 since the price for Scarlet just went up. And in your case, I imagine you are going Stage 2 or Stage 3, so you're not really paying $28 000 for Epic. Taking into account all the upgrade rebates plus Epic-X accessories, the difference between choosing Epic rather than Scarlet is actually less than $5000. If you chose the $8000 Scarlet S35 brain rather than Epic, you'd still have to spend the equivalent in accessories. No way could you get 4 equipped Scarlets for the price of an Epic.
 
Steven-Marc C. said:
No way could you get 4 equipped Scarlets for the price of an Epic.
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I never made that claim, and I understand the price differences, with the modules.

Still, as Mark says, there are features besides image quality at stake -- ergonomics figures into the equation as well, for me. If I can save $5K and get the lighter, smaller form factor--and image quality is identical--SCARLET may be a better choice for me. I don't produce multi-million dollar features on a regular basis. Almost all of my jobs are sub-$300K budgets. Colorado doesn't attract huge budget projects, unfortunately.

I know I'm posting a lot about this - it is only because I never considered purchasing SCARLET over EPIC before this week. So a little excessive musing over the options is occurring.
 
As far as I have seen, only HDRx is stated for Scarlet, which sorta makes sense as it will demand less processing power than Easy-HDR and one basically would have to allow for higher data throughput, and not real-time processing.

This is very speculative, of course - but would be a very distinguishing factor if it was in-fact the Magic Motion that was the most desired aspect of the HDR images, as it currently is for me.

That would mean a much hevaier post path for Scarlet HDR and Magic Motion, than Epic. If this is a feature you envisage using a lot, Epic is da-beaf...
 
Not if you are in the rental business.
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Mark, what rental business? It'll nose dive with the advent of Scarlet!

Now ... if you are a production company - and you produce a TV show for Discovery or another cable network ... like ... Axe Men, Deadliest Catch or Ice Road Truckers or something - YES - buy a bunch of Scarlets.
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Case in point - Scarlet looks just too good and is so cheap that I honestly think the rental market will change radically as it has done with production companies buying Sony EX1/3's instead of renting. Scarlet will most likely satisfy major broadcasters such as the BBC for HD production i.e. they already accept the Red One + Scarlet way exceeds this in quality.

If EPIC was available TODAY at $56,000 - I think you would be surprised how many RED would sell overnight. Compare to body price of Alexa, F35, etc.
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I completely agree, however my point is that when Scarlet ships, Epic sales will drop off the chart unless the feature set improves. When we move into Alexa, F35 territory, things are different. We talking high-end, usually high budget film making. The people most excited about Scarlet I suspect are those who have been restricted through budget to the EX1/3 range of cameras but aspire to achieve the quality of 35mm film.

Scott
 
Meryem Ersoz said:
I never made that claim, and I understand the price differences, with the modules.

Still, as Mark says, there are features besides image quality at stake -- ergonomics figures into the equation as well, for me. If I can save $5K and get the lighter, smaller form factor--and image quality is identical--SCARLET may be a better choice for me. I don't produce multi-million dollar features on a regular basis. Almost all of my jobs are sub-$300K budgets. Colorado doesn't attract huge budget projects, unfortunately.

I know I'm posting a lot about this - it is only because I never considered purchasing SCARLET over EPIC before this week. So a little excessive musing over the options is occurring.
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I realize that for the kind of work you do (from what I've seen here and on dvinfo) Scarlet could seem like the better option. You could probably have a fully equipped Scarlet and an extra brain as backup for the price of Epic-X. Which is a tempting option.
On the other hand, we know even less about what Scarlet S35 will end up being than we know about Epic. We know the Epic brain has grown a bit larger but we don't know if that implies anything for Scarlet.
It seems right now Red is concentrating on Epic and Scarlet 2/3 and these are two very different cameras.
 
Scott Brown said:
Mark, what rental business? It'll nose dive with the advent of Scarlet!
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This is simply not true. It's not about camera bodies - it's about service and support. Serious productions will always want a rental vendor. In fact - I STRONGLY suspect that lots of folks will spend all their money on Scarlets and still need to rent support to service clients.

Scott Brown said:
I completely agree, however my point is that when Scarlet ships, Epic sales will drop off the chart unless the feature set improves. When we move into Alexa, F35 territory, things are different. We talking high-end, usually high budget film making. The people most excited about Scarlet I suspect are those who have been restricted through budget to the EX1/3 range of cameras but aspire to achieve the quality of 35mm film.

Scott
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Scott -

That is just the point of RED making the two cameras. Two different price points.

EPIC is the big gun. The features announced publicly are NOT complete.

Everyone wants a bigger gun. Projects with good budgets - the kind you want - want the bigger gun.

I said it before and I will say it again (and again) - EPIC WILL BE THE MOST SOUGHT AFTER DIGITAL CINEMA CAMERA IN THE WORLD. ALMOST OVERNIGHT.

You can't afford to buy an EPIC - rent one - you can't afford to rent an EPIC - buy or rent a Scarlet.
 
I don't think the feature list of any of their cameras is complete. Not even the r1.

Nor is their pricing based on how it will sell. The pricing seems to be based on
a cost-to-build-it ratio and then "let the market fall where it may".
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
This is simply not true. It's not about camera bodies - it's about service and support. Serious productions will always want a rental vendor. In fact - I STRONGLY suspect that lots of folks will spend all their money on Scarlets and still need to rent support to service clients.



Scott -

That is just the point of RED making the two cameras. Two different price points.

EPIC is the big gun. The features announced publicly are NOT complete.

Everyone wants a bigger gun. Projects with good budgets - the kind you want - want the bigger gun.

I said it before and I will say it again (and again) - EPIC WILL BE THE MOST SOUGHT AFTER DIGITAL CINEMA CAMERA IN THE WORLD. ALMOST OVERNIGHT.

You can't afford to buy an EPIC - rent one - you can't afford to rent an EPIC - buy or rent a Scarlet.
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Agreed, EPIC is not for aimed for a hobby/enthusiast. It's geared towards the guys who make money off their cameras, the big dogs, the ones who are on set shooting 200+ days a year. Their income is their camera(s).

I could't show up on set and shoot any commercial without all the support to insure the camera works on set, enough equipment to keep the camera running all day. I have to have back ups of everything, double of every cable (they break), double of monitoring options, enough drive space to not have to format all day. If ANY of that stuff fails on set, and you don't have the tools to keep the production rolling, you are costing the production time and money.

Not to mention you need your computer set up to transfer the footage, grade, and deliver dailies.
 
I want Epic to be the BIG GUN. It's just that right now my Epic feels less big than I'd like. :blush:

That didn't come out right did it???

Mark, it is early days and I know that you are privy to more information from the Red camp than most on this forum, so I'll sit back and see where the chips land.

In the meantime our Red One still amazes me every time I shoot with it!

Best wishes

Scott
 
Like many others, voted no due to the amount of extra time I assumed this would tack on, but good news all around if only a slight delay is needed to make this happen. Pretty incredible that RED's lowest end camera will be competing with nearly every "cutting-edge" high-end camera out there from other manufacturers.
 
Last year there was no public talk of HDRx™ for Scarlet.
It's now being added to Scarlet and I am all for that.
But where does it end?
What if there is another important feature in 6 months? I'm sure there are many.
Will there be a vote and it gets added too?

I'm more than happy to send a camera back for upgrades every couple of years. I'm more than happy to pay for it. But every year there will be advancements and it seems like you could justify adding something every year.
 
"Not everyone gets their paycheck in dollars."

Do you mean US dollars because neither do I. Plus either way you will have to buy it one way or another how does this affect you differently my comments still apply, If you could afford it before but can't now was it really affordable to you or were you overstretching yourself. The exchange rate or dollar amount in your country does matter but not in regard to my question, the difference between the old price and new is not that large for a professional digital motion camera.


"Some people live in countries where you pay 60% custom taxes over foreign electronics."

once again you have to deal with that no matter what (as do I to a lesser extent) so that is factored into your price and hence my comment still applies if you had the cash how can this price it out of your market. You either are a working professional who can afford it, a wealthy hobbyist, or you are overstretching yourself and you should just rent and save up or go in for a group buy. The fact is that is the price of the camera, when I herd of the red one being developed years ago I didn't wine to red and team to lower the price so I could afford it, that's selfish, I went out in the world and began to earn money realizing soon there would be a camera for me out there.

"Scarlet was initially a $3K camera, so many (including me) were very happy about an entry-level RED camera."

that was a different camera, it never existed it does not factor into this equation, different features, different form, different time in the market.

p.s. Red shouldn't make entry level consumer cams what they do make is professional cam's and scarlet is the entry level into Reds pro line up of cameras.

"Then what? Progressive price increase, Scarlet slowly crawled out of my (and many others) budget."

As I keep saying it is by no means out of your budget for life, or even a year, I have to assume in a year of working you can make up that extra cash to pay for it. Honestly your personal finances are non of my business so I can not definitively say how much you can earn in what amount of time. It's just you either work for it, rent it, or buy something else as it is not worth it to you (meaning you will not make enough use of it to justify the price of it)

"Playing the "if you don't have the money maybe it's not for you" card is a bit rude considering Scarlet's history. Imagine if EPIC price jumped to $95K..."

It's not a card it's a reality in this life. I don't mean it's not for you ever just for now, if you aren't making enough money to pay for the upgrade (or the cam in the first place) it's not a wise decision to put all your money into it as you will not make back your money and grow to resent your camera. Epics price could jump much higher and many would still pay, but that is not the point. None of these prices have been final, so there has never been an official price and basing your plans around the given prices at anytime and building all your dreams around that is not the best course of action to me.

"Perhaps I buy Scarlet, perhaps not. I want RAW and better quality? Yes... But I still need to better myself as a DP and cheaper options are offering more quality each day."

honestly I'm in the same boat I have a lot more work to go but luckily I have saved up more than enough money from working over the years since the announcement. I would say keep practicing on DSLR's handy cams whatever, go rent an old 16mm film cam and buy some cheap film stock and you are off to the races (nowadays this can be real cheap method of filming if you know what you are doing). I'm just saying that this is not the end of the world, keep practicing and save up to get one, we can all get anything we want if we just put our minds to it.

I'm sorry if I seem blunt or rude at points it's just I have been working my ass off since the scarlet announcements way back (actually probably closer to the red one announcement) to save as much as I can, and to hear all this complaining about price is funny to me, had people only saved up the exact amount listed as a proposed price for the cameras, what about accessories? other gear for the cam? I find it hard to believe that each of us who really want it and are passionate about the industry can't buckle down and earn the extra cash, no matter what country province you are in laziness is not an excuse(not saying anyone is lazy).

we all want raw and we all want a scarlet but are we all on the level of a scarlet? I'm not saying don't buy it if you aren't, just saying that if you can't afford it and you still need to learn some things perhaps a more entry level prosumer cam would be better for you as you save for a scarlet. But to be honest I don't know you and I don't know the others who feel this way, the reality for them may be very different but to me it comes down to putting in a little more work to own something that is so beyond anything else at it's level that it would be worth it at twice the cost.

No hard feelings we all have our own paths.
 
Scott Brown said:
I completely agree, however my point is that when Scarlet ships, Epic sales will drop off the chart unless the feature set improves. When we move into Alexa, F35 territory, things are different. We talking high-end, usually high budget film making. The people most excited about Scarlet I suspect are those who have been restricted through budget to the EX1/3 range of cameras but aspire to achieve the quality of 35mm film.
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Scarlet won't be any competition for Epic. Epic is ment for people who mind resolution a lot, who don't want to settle for anything less than 35mm equivalent. Or as a serious step up for the best broadcast cameramen.
Point is, Epic is a camera for people who would (and could) pay up to 60k for a camera, no glass included. They will not buy Scarlet instead of Epic.
They'll buy a Scarlet aswell.
If the lense is as good as the hints on this forum suggest, the fixed is going to sold in truckloads.
Wait, strike that, boatloads.

EDIT
In fact, what is the deal with people saying Epic needs more features to set it apart from Scarlet? Before HDR was mentioned they were as different as they are now. HDR has been added to both.
Nobody was crying about Epic vs Scarlet features back then.
Sure it would be stellar for rental business if only Epic had motion HDR. But some people on this forum are freaking out about this.
The two cameras are just as similar and/or different as they were. They both got something extra.
Epic even got it for free.
Don't worry, be happy.
 
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I wonder if HDRx will be feasible for the larger sensor scarlet models? All of the extra data off of the larger sensor scarlets may require significantly more additional processing power to implement HDRx than it takes to implement the feature on the 2/3 scarlet. It may cost significantly more to implement on S35, etc?
 
You guys complaining about price... 2 questions.

1. How many cameras have you bought so far? Add that up.
for instance DVX100 + HVX200 = over $10,000 (sure maybe you made some back selling them for 1/2 price)

Still think Scarlet is over priced? How much value is there in a camera you will buy ONCE and not need to replace... that comes with LOADS of FREE SOFTWARE
and FIRMWARE UPGRADES and MODULES.

2. Why does everyone feel they need to OWN a camera to be a filmmaker? I know many successful DP's that do NOT own there own production cameras. They use cameras
rented for them. Camera ownership is EXPENSIVE... its not the camera, its ALL THE ACCESSORIES that kills you.

Bottom line, if you cant justify the expense, its not a smart purchase. Find someone to buy it with you. Form a partnership. If you are holding out for RED, you obviously do your homework and are smart... be just as diligent about your purchases.
 
I totally welcome Red's announcement of HDRx inclusion in Scarlet! In my mind the added cost is thoroughly justified. Having been one of Red's very first customers I can say this: Red has always under-promised and over-delivered. It has continually amazed me as a customer how much I've received for my money invested in Red products. Red has regularly gone "the extra mile" for all of us customers.

For my production needs I'm initially buying two Epic and two fixed lens Scarlet. Later on I'll also buy more Scarlets. For mobile EFP, dangerous locations, documentaries, and "guerilla" TV productions me and my crews do, we'll use the fixed lens Scarlet. For our higher end productions which call for higher resolution and frame rates we'll use Epic. These two camera systems, Epic and Scarlet should "dance" together seamlessly. I'll analyze each individual production, or portion thereof, then select between Epic and Scarlet accordingly which of the cameras we'll use.

In my mind the biggest challenge for users of these new camera systems and accessories from Red will be for those users to have broad enough minds, attitudes, and skill sets to effectively maximize what the cameras are capable of. I believe a lot of people here need to quit complaining and use that same time and energy to broaden their skill sets, open their minds, stash away funds, form alliances, get loans - or whatever else it will take to fully acquire, embrace, and utilize these new tools from Red.

Thanks for the new features Red! I deeply appreciate all your insight, progress, long hours, and willingness to deliver an ever-increasing feature set in the new cameras! No matter what course of action you choose there will always be a certain percentage of the industry telling you that you're wrong. Let that be water off a duck's back - you're doing it right and there's a ton of us out here feeling that way about it :thumbup1:
 
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