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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet Dragon

Daniel Christensen

Daniel Christensen

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Am I correct in my knowledge that Scarlet Dragon will have the same exact color science, DR, etc. as Epic Dragon, just without the 6K, limited to 60p in 5K, etc.? Because (call me crazy) I think the 6K sensor size is too big for the kind of work I do, and 5K 60p with a small enough sensor to be covered by my cine zooms would be perfect.

Thanks!
 
Yes. It's also a little bit bigger crop factor, but that's it.

(...that's as far as we all know at the moment, because Scarlet Dragon has not been spotted out in the wild yet ;) )

If it all holds true, Scarlet Dragon will have a 1.4x Crop Factor @ 5k max resolution, whereas Epic Dragon has almost none: 1.18x @ 6k.

Red-Dragon-Info-and-Data-Sheets
 
That seems to be the case so far. I do hope they allow for some sort of 6k/15fps recording as well, but 6k is not even mentioned on the Scarlet Dragon page. That could be very useful for capturing action photos and actually make DSMC a real thing. You don't have to worry about sensor coverage as I believe 5k on Scarlet dragon will be around 1.4crop factor so between epic mx and scarlet mx.
 
Patrick Grossien said:
Yes. It's also a little bit bigger crop factor, but that's it.
Click to expand...

Yep. And remember that crop factor is relative to your "starting format". So if you're used to say shooting Super 35mm there's pretty much no crop factor at all. Starting from Full Frame 35mm Still, you get the numbers listed above.

And about having access to 6K. I'm only going based on the info learned at NAB 2013, but it sounded like Scarlet Dragon would use a 5K sized Dragon chip which would save a bit on costs on manufacturing. However, everything and anything can change in the Red world. So stay tuned until you see more info drop.
 
Yes, so we basically we're assuming this is a smaller cut of the same wafer. Resulting in a smaller physical sensor size compared to Epic Dragon, which explains why there can't be 6K at all.
Smaller cuts are easier, because of better yields, therefore less expensive - ergo, Scarlet.
 
Well if I'm not mistaken, Scarlet-X had the same sensor as Epic-X, just limited processing which kept it at 4K only for true motion. I guess what I'm really wondering is will Scarlet Dragon have the same dynamic range, ISO 2000 etc. as Epic Dragon?
 
Daniel Christensen said:
Well if I'm not mistaken, Scarlet-X had the same sensor as Epic-X, just limited processing which kept it at 4K only for true motion. I guess what I'm really wondering is will Scarlet Dragon have the same dynamic range, ISO 2000 etc. as Epic Dragon?
Click to expand...

That would suck if it didn't and it wouldn't justify the $9500 upgrade price for the sensor/ASIC upgrade. I'm 99% certain it'll have the same DR/ISO performance as the 6k sensor.

Besides, there's no sensor info yet on SD so everything is speculation.
 
Jett He said:
That would suck if it didn't and it wouldn't justify the $9500 upgrade price for the sensor/ASIC upgrade. I'm 99% certain it'll have the same DR/ISO performance as the 6k sensor.

Besides, there's no sensor info yet on SD so everything is speculation.
Click to expand...

True, at this point has RED even given a date on Scarlet Dragon?
 
All speculation. Very true. We will just have to wait... :)

As I see it, it's a luxurious problem to have: Epic or Scarlet Dragon :) They are all great options...
 
Would love to know if the sensor in the Scarlet-D is just a flagged 6K-sensor (like Scarlet-X) in case they'll enable look-around to get the full 1.18X-sensor FOV.
 
How can it have the same sensor and not offer 6K at limited fps? It apparently has enough processing power (60fps @ 5K) to do 6K, even at 12fps. It may be that RED just held it back intentionally to separate Epic-D adopters, or if it is a physical hardware limitation, how can this be the same sensor? I guess it confuses me. Time will tell.
 
As mentioned this is all guess work until we will see the camera.

Word has been that the actual sensor is smaller then the one from Dragon.

Very simplified, sensors are generally cut from a large wafer. The larger the sensors are that you want, the more expensive it gets, if some of the pieces are not up to spec. So you potentially get a better percentage yield out of a wafer with smaller sensors which in return makes the sensors cheaper. So it's possible that this is the way the sensors are dealt with, which leaves a smaller sensor for the Scarlet where no 6K is possible, because there are physically not enough photosites there for it.

I'm no physicist and no imaging technician, but that's how I understand the deal with CMOS sensors.

But again, nothing has been confirmed, so we will just need to sit tight and wait. All this back and forth speculation really makes no sense.
 
Marcos Montenegro said:
How can it have the same sensor and not offer 6K at limited fps? It apparently has enough processing power (60fps @ 5K) to do 6K, even at 12fps. It may be that RED just held it back intentionally to separate Epic-D adopters, or if it is a physical hardware limitation, how can this be the same sensor? I guess it confuses me. Time will tell.
Click to expand...

Nothing is "known" yet. However, if it is a smaller 5K version of the 6K Dragon sensor I'll briefly explain.

In the long process of creating a CMOS sensor a silicon wafer is created and typically several chips are cut out of it. Larger sensors are typically made of large wafers, however, they must be "perfect" for them to make it through to the next level of fabrication. You sometimes lose a bit of a wafer or even the entire wafer due to imperfections before the process of creating the entire semiconductor is completed. However, a smaller sensor size typically means better yield ratios. If Red wants to make smaller versions of the Dragon sensor while maintaining the same pixel design and sensor features they could in fact make them in a fashion that would be more cost effective for us and them. Hence making Scarlet Dragon a slightly less expensive upgrade.

That's just part of a rather extremely technical manufacturing process, but that is indeed one way costs can be cut down. You may be thinking that the difference in size between a 6K and 5K sensor is somewhat minimal and how much could actually be saved by that. However, if you consider the 4 sides to a sensor and multiple chips being cut from wafers you can see how that surface area gets eaten up.


Okay. That's out of the way. And I'll stress this as Red has mentioned that they are looking at just how to upgrade Scarlet-X to Scarlet Dragon. There isn't much hard info yet. There will need to be new boards installed in one way shape or form to even support the new sensor in the Scarlet-X. It's not just a straight sensor swap.


However, right now Red's priority is finishing up the 6K Dragon sensor of the Epic upgrades and new bodies. This also effects Scarlet Dragon in this process as things get fine tuned, tweaked, and trimmed. A 6K or even 5.5K look around would be lovely on Scarlet Dragon, but in essence cost savings must be made somewhere otherwise you'd be staring at a significantly more expensive upgrade. That's why many actually felt that Scarlet-X was a pretty tremendous deal, I know I did at the time.

Another interesting factor here is Red hasn't stated that Red Scarlet Dragon cameras would be available for the public market just yet. There could be a variety of reasons for this. One is the potential of them having to eat a bit of cost to just handle the Scarlet-X to Scarlet Dragon upgrades. However, that's just speculation and who really knows.

So in reality until Red announces a bit more information regarding this particular upgrade we're left with the specs on the store page and what has been talking about here. Epic Dragon bodies should be trickling out there. Red's priority is getting that done and there will be a point once that becomes a bit more "normal" that they'll move on to setting up the infrastructure and reveal more details about the Scarlet-X to Scarlet Dragon path.


The good news? You can upgrade. That's a pretty big deal. Also you're getting access to the same pixel design, dynamic range, and color science as well as things like the new IROLPF and other odd bits.
 
Patrick and Phil:

Thanks for the detailed answers. I am aware how sensors are manufactured, and if indeed the SD sensor is smaller than the 6K ED sensor, then wouldn't that need another order with different specs, machine calibrations, etc, which may not necessarily translate into cost savings?

Anyway, I agree is pointless to discuss speculations, just thought by now someone would know something more concrete given the "Upgrades estimated to begin September 2013" statement on the webpage. I mean, nobody knows if a SD has even been manufactured yet, let alone tested.
 
When we upgrade our Epics to Dragon does RED switch out the case? I`m just wondering if physically they look like dragons on the outside after upgrade? Dragon logo etc.
 
My only saving grace with the long wait of Scarlet Dragon is that it extends the upgrade option.

Hard coming up with that kind of money.

I'm leaning towards the EPIC but if that runs out then hopefully the Scarlet Dragon will still be in the mix of things :)
 
D Anderson said:
When we upgrade our Epics to Dragon does RED switch out the case? I`m just wondering if physically they look like dragons on the outside after upgrade? Dragon logo etc.
Click to expand...

you get a cool DRAGON engraving
products_primary_MDRAGONPL6K.png
 
So this may have been answered somewhere, but I can't really find it. I'm not a huge crop factor numbers guy, but was wondering about fov when it comes from going 4k mx to 5k dragon. I'm assuming it should be wider than the 4k? I know it won't be as wide as 5k mx right now due to the density of the pixels, but does anyone know how much wider it would be?
 
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