SCARLET ANNOUNCEMENT - Feedback

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Folks,

Thoughts on Canon vs PL mount for Scarlet? If you own neither type of lens, and ultimately plan to also add an EPIC X which mount is better to go with? I don't own a Canon and not very familiar with the range of Canon lenses and not sure if there's some advantage to having that mount vs just the PL mount. Thanks for any advice, and feel free to PM me since this is a bit OT. I'm considering changing my order from the Canon mount package to the Ti PL mount package, which is prompting this question.

I'm reading this thread, but wondering if the Scarlet release changes things - http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?61542-Nikon-Canon-vs.-PL-Lenses/page4

Never mind! Found this thread -- you can tell I've never been to the scarlet thread, given I was so focused on the Epic.
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?65965-Canon-Mount-OR-PL-Mount

 

[Mike Poore]

After waiting years for this camera to surface and going to watch the announcement first hand last night, I put my deposit down with confidence today.
Thanks to Red team for their hard work and innovation, very exiting times for us all.

 

[Tim H.]

I've been absent from here for a while, mainly because I prefer to be out shooting / working rather than getting caught up in constant debate or fanboyism. Now that the dust has finally settled and we have a Scarlet we can purchase, here I am getting dragged back in

So my concerns before I click the preorder button, are these specs final or is everything still subject to change? Is the scarlet going to be solid and stable or still a work in progress that will need constant firmware updates (aside from new features)?

For example one thing that worries me is something Philip Bloom said: "...love my Epic but have had hideous reliability issues with it. Will RED carry on with having BETA firmware in the Scarlet or will they make it more stable". http://philipbloom.net/2011/11/04/newcameras/

Don't get me wrong, I love what Red is doing, they have lead the resolution push and changed the direction of digital cinema. I want to help Red grow by supporting them with a camera purchase but at the same time I need my gear to work flawlessly.

 

[Mathew Joki]

Haven't seen any solid response yet regarding possiblity of making 1:1 pixel cropvs Full Frame with binning (correct term?) available option via firmware. Any advice on this?
Would be a dream come true to have this format custamizability added to such an amazing camera.

At least is there any comparison chart(s) available to show the crop factor of each resolution from 5K down the scale to 1K??

Saving up now for the Scarlet. Amazing annoucement. Totally blows the C300 announcement out of the water!

 

[Asif Limbada]

Why does the official Scarlet tech page shows 1080p instead of 2K http://www.red.com/products/scarlet, I think people might confuse it with 1920x1080p instead of 2048 x 1080

 

[Michael Brennan]

SO PLEASE RED TELL ME, WHY ANYBODY SHOULD PAY NOW FOR EPIC M ( 58 k) or RED ONE ( 25 K ) IF THEY SHARE SAME SENSOR AND 25 F/S IS AVAILABLE,
Please answer me as U old customer really wondering if I made a good choice to pay for Epics and wait so long to be suprised in a day of delivery that another , very similar camera is available in 1/4 of the price???? Delivery took place today, but all happyness has gone somehow...

Martin, I sympathise with your feelings, taking delivery of Epic the same day as Scarlet pricing is released.. eekk
You seem to be saying that you relied on the notion that the Epic would not be challenged by another RED camera?


Whilst the RED phenomenon has probably led many to believe that cameras would not become obsolete due to REDs upgrade policy, RED have never said that they would not release a new camera that adversely affect the business plans of it's existing customers. They have to be able to respond to competition.


You are saying that in your area with your business model the Epic (business model) will be made obsolescent by Scarlet (business model)?
If so, why not ask RED to accept your Epics (at a sensible fraction of their original price) as a trade-in for a clutch of Scarlets?

The harsh reality of electronic gizmos is that they get better and cheaper and a business plan should have the electronic kit being paid off in 2-3 years rather than relying on the manufacturer to look after you. For instance, who has an idea what the next Sensor upgrade for Epic will cost? It could be near the cost of a new Scarlet!

Whilst everyone is applauding Scarlet for its price, this is a double edged sword, race to the bottom...
What price a RED one from Nov 4th?


A decade or so ago the combination of DV cameras cheap enough for production houses to buy and an oversupply of cameras wreaked havoc with small rental companies who had to adjust their inventory, rates and ideas or go out of business. Perhaps Scarlet will have this effect on the large format industry.

It isn't the end of the world, hitching your wagon to a fast moving company like RED demands that your business plans keep up! Jim has stated words to the effect that they are only just beginning.....

The term "Obsolescence obsolete" isn't a contract condition on your sales invoice, it is like much of the RED phenomena, born from Jims passion and goodwill, but non the less, a marketing term which RED have been able to maintain by offering deals on upgrades.

It is the cost effectiveness of getting quality images on screen that pays the bills for most of us and Scarlet is quite able to do this and in addition, combined with a decent warranty, customer orientated after sales service and its keen price is enough to ensure Scarlet's success.


Mike Brennan

 

[Isaac Testerman]

I've been trying to find out what aspect ratios the scarlet shoots at. Anyone know?

 

[David Dennis]

5K is 60% more pixels than 4K. Shooting motion at 5K makes a difference. And that 60% more takes a lot more horsepower. So is framerates Important to some people.. which again takes more horsepower.. and so does compression.

We didn't invent the big brother/ little brother concept.. it has existed since the beginning of time.

What makes a $100 Pentium 2.8ghz CPU different then a $1000 Pentium 3.2ghz CPU.? they usually come out of the same oven...

When chips and sensors go through testing, some can perform faster than others and handle more speed/data than others. It's called yield, and it is not artificial. You get parts that can handle the speed, some that cannot. Instead of throwing all those ones that can't keep up, you run them slower and give them a new life. Pretty simple stuff.

I'm curious about this, Jarred. Doesn't this mean that if you sell a lot more Scarlets than Epics, you would run out of Epic discards and therefore could not make the number of Scarlets we demand?

(Various complaints about buying Epics for $58k and now seeing Scarlet)

First, it was well known that RED was going to release EPIC-S or something similar to EPIC-S for a long time. Jim did effectively announce the discontinuation of EPIC-S but also suggested that EPIC-S fans should wait for the Scarlet announcement for something that would make them happy. EPIC-S had been announced at around $12k which is not that different from what Scarlet is going for.

That being said, check out the Peter Jackson thread, which had him running 48FPS through his EPIC-Ms. He could not have made The Hobbit as he wished without 48FPS. Only EPIC is capable of 48FPS. I suspect someone like Peter creates a lot of trends, and so a lot of people are going to want EPICs so they can shoot like he does, especially if The Hobbit is a hit.

Also a lot of people are going to want HDRx and HDRx essentially requires EPIC. I would think that as a colorist you would find the potential of HDRx very exciting!

D

 

[Noel R.]

I placed my deposit for the Scarlet X. Let me say, I was blown away that we were getting a larger sensor and the ability to shoot 4K, and the fact that the Canon mount was an option. One thing that I wanted and was really looking forward to was the 120 fps at 3k like originally stated. Not sure if a firmware upgrade can achieve that, but even if I can get 2k at that frame rate I would be happy. Shooting 120 fps at 1k is nice, but I don't really see myself using that footage other than for a "Hey look what my RED can do." 2K I can use. So if I can make one wish 2k at 120 fps is it.

 

[Ryan Salt]

Hey Red Folks, just a few quick questions for you I have found mixed responses on. The scarlet output through hd-sdi, what are the specs on it?

Is it a scale down from the full size of the chip? Is it 10-bit or 8-bit and does it give you full raster quality with an external recorder?

Thanks for any info on this!

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

I placed my deposit for the Scarlet X. Let me say, I was blown away that we were getting a larger sensor and the ability to shoot 4K, and the fact that the Canon mount was an option. One thing that I wanted and was really looking forward to was the 120 fps at 3k like originally stated. Not sure if a firmware upgrade can achieve that, but even if I can get 2k at that frame rate I would be happy. Shooting 120 fps at 1k is nice, but I don't really see myself using that footage other than for a "Hey look what my RED can do." 2K I can use. So if I can make one wish 2k at 120 fps is it.

I bought a Scarlet X last night. My thought and hope was that it would be able to shoot at least 4k on a Super 35mm sensor with optional mounts at 24 fps so I can make movies. If it was anything less, I wouldn't have bought it regardless of price. I am buying this to be a serious filmmaker and shoot films.

I do not care about spending a lot more money simply for 5K as I've seen major hollywood films shot on 2K that look great and 4K that look only a little better.

If you expect RED to change frame rates at higher Ks you need an EPIC. There has to be a difference between these beasts. RED has given us so much. Shooting select shots at slow mo isn't a problem. A cheap rental for those shots will save the day and a lot of money.

 

[Tim H.]

Hey Red Folks, just a few quick questions for you I have found mixed responses on. The scarlet output through hd-sdi, what are the specs on it?

Is it a scale down from the full size of the chip? Is it 10-bit or 8-bit and does it give you full raster quality with an external recorder?

Thanks for any info on this!

According to the specs on Red.com it looks like: 1080p 4:2:2 but doesn't mention bit depth. Would love some clarification here.

Also, what are the options for SSD drives? Red branded only? You can get OCZ SSD for 1/6thish the price.

 

[Tom Wardrop]

Scarlet X really is the little sister of the Epic. It sounds as though it's basically the same camera, but with scaled down internal componentry, hence lower frame rates. Everything else is pretty much the same. This probably suits some people a lot though as you're basically getting the best of the Epic for a quarter the price. Though on the other hand, there's another crowd who would have preferred the higher frame-rates of the smaller sensor Scarlet, and those who would have preferred the characteristics of a 2/3rds sensor. Then you've got those like me who would still get a Scarlet, if only the price was about 66% of what it is now ($9k for the kit + $2k for a lens or two would have me sold). The cost should be proportional to the megapixels the camera can capture in motion. So instead of the old 3k for $3k, it should be 9MP for $9k ready-to-shoot. Instead we're getting priced on the stills resolution of 14MP for $14k ready-to-shoot... One can only hope that Jim likes my idea

I really hope RED lowers prices as their costs go down, especially on the accessories, as to not make their cameras exclusive. Jim at leasts gives the impression that his driving force is getting cameras to the people. I just hope we see that happen over the coming years.

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

Scarlet X really is the little sister of the Epic. It sounds as though it's basically the same camera, but with scaled down internal componentry, hence lower frame rates. Everything else is pretty much the same. This probably suits some people a lot though as you're basically getting the best of the Epic for a quarter the price. Though on the other hand, there's another crowd who would have preferred the higher frame-rates of the smaller sensor Scarlet, and those who would have preferred the characteristics of a 2/3rds sensor. Then you've got those like me who would still get a Scarlet, if only the price was about 66% of what it is now ($9k for the kit + $2k for a lens or two would have me sold).

When you have the components and quality build of a RED and compare that to the Canon 300 C for 20,000 or Sony F3 for 14,000 this is a freakin' steal. Anyone complaining or thinking it should be less is very unrealistic.

My thoughts are there are plenty of 2/3 inch cameras out there. 2/3 inch sensors are not really "currently" a digital cinema tool . Red sells Digital Cinema Tools not video cameras.

Although I do realize the expectations some had and maybe the marketing should have been presented different along the way. I'm a very happy camper however and it is exactly what I wanted.

 

[Travis Freeburg]

I bought a Scarlet X last night. My thought and hope was that it would be able to shoot at least 4k on a Super 35mm sensor with optional mounts at 24 fps so I can make movies. If it was anything less, I wouldn't have bought it regardless of price. I am buying this to be a serious filmmaker and shoot films.

I do not care about spending a lot more money simply for 5K as I've seen major hollywood films shot on 2K that look great and 4K that look only a little better.

If you expect RED to change frame rates at higher Ks you need an EPIC. There has to be a difference between these beasts. RED has given us so much. Shooting select shots at slow mo isn't a problem. A cheap rental for those shots will save the day and a lot of money.

erm... You've seen 4k that looks only a little better than 2k, you don't care about 5k, but if scarlet was less than 4k or not s35, you would have not bought?

 

[Tom Wardrop]

Yeah, I'm very accepting of the current price of the Scarlet, I'm more-or-less just hoping the prices drop overtime instead of staying as they are. The cost of media is also a problem. Any $100 consumer-grade SSD could easily sustain the 55MB/s write speed required by the RED Scarlet X, yet we're charged $900. Sure, RED's SSD's are certified and guaranteed to work, plus their smaller 1.8" drives with a more durable interface, and I'd expect to pay a premium for all of that, but $900 just kills it for me. $450 would be much more reasonable. I understand that RED's a business and wants to capitalize on their accessories, but it's one of the few crosses against RED's name compared to other camera manufacturers who don't make their media proprietary. Actually the cost of accessories in general has probably been my only problem with RED's business model. I love everything else about RED and otherwise think their camera bodies are excellent value.

If RED sold a module that accepted standard 2.5" SSD's, I would never doubt RED's ethics or business model again. Even if the module was $1500, it would be an amazing gesture to offer such a product.

 

[Tim H.]

When you have the components and quality build of a RED and compare that to the Canon 300 C for 20,000 or Sony F3 for 14,000 this is a freakin' steal. Anyone complaining or thinking it should be less is very unrealistic.

My thoughts are there are plenty of 2/3 inch cameras out there. 2/3 inch sensors are not really "currently" a digital cinema tool . Red sells Digital Cinema Tools not video cameras.

Although I do realize the expectations some had and maybe the marketing should have been presented different along the way. I'm a very happy camper however and it is exactly what I wanted.

I get what you are saying. I like that Red is made in the USA and the fact that Irvine is 10 minutes away from me but then I read some of the reports of the Epic crashing in the field and I start to question the term "quality build". I'm pretty sure the Canon C300 or F3 won't bomb on set but like anything there is a reason we have a warranty. All things fail.

As far as pricing. I wish the Scarlet was ready to shoot for 10K, but once you buy the "required" accessories you are at 14K and that is not even realistic as you still need media. How many SSD's do you need to shoot a days worth of footage? How much will that cost you?

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

erm... You've seen 4k that looks only a little better than 2k, you don't care about 5k, but if scarlet was less than 4k or not s35, you would have not bought?

What I'm saying is while I do want a camera that is future proof pixels aren't everything. I'm happy to have 4k, but it is the hand that holds the hammer as well. I've seen shitty footage from RED at 4k on screen and great footage from RED. Of course based on people who are hiring me for projects, their perception is 4K is the future so I am buying this for the level that can increase my profits and obtaining jobs.

I can't afford 5K at the current rates so it wasn't in my plan nor is it neccessary for me. 4K has been projected on IMAX and that's fine with me. While I am hoping my films will make it to the big screen, only a tiny fraction will ever see the need to blow ups which require more than 2k. It is nice, but unnecessary from what I've seen. I'm happy to have it and was expecting this from RED.

Yes, Pixels aren't everything. Some of the best films I've seen, the most cinematic came from the Alexa this summer. A few more on the Sony F 35, these were finished on or shot on 2k.

They looked great. However, I'm behind the philosophy of Red, have PL mount Super 35mm lenses so first Super 35 was a must. 2nd, 3K would have been fine too, but if I had to settle for 2K I would have gone Sony F3 simply for confirmed reliability issues and previous experience with the EX line.

Basically I'm saying for the price, to me this is the best camera out there and it is a true cinema camera.

 

[Jarred Land]

Actually the cost of accessories in general has probably been my only problem with RED's business model.

I hear this comment every once in awhile and it makes me shake my head.

Our accessories have always been not only extremely competitive, but downright a bargain when you compare apples to apples.. same with our cameras.

Our SSD's are expensive because they require special testing with low yields, special firmware, post assembly testing and on top of that we are not buying these things by the millions... its easy to goto Amazon.com and think we are ripping you off. And yeah.. we are the only one that makes our own media... Panasonic P2 Cards? Sony SXS cards? yeah.. we are the only ones. Give me a break.

Tell me something else that we are unfair with... please.

I get personally offended by comments like this.

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

Yeah, I'm very accepting of the current price of the Scarlet, I'm more-or-less just hoping the prices drop overtime instead of staying as they are. The cost of media is also a problem. Any $100 consumer-grade SSD could easily sustain the 55MB/s write speed required by the RED Scarlet X, yet we're charged $900. Sure, RED's SSD's are certified and guaranteed to work, plus their smaller 1.8" drives with a more durable interface, and I'd expect to pay a premium for all of that, but $900 just kills it for me. $450 would be much more reasonable. I understand that RED's a business and wants to capitalize on their accessories, but it's one of the few crosses against RED's name compared to other camera manufacturers who don't make their media proprietary. Actually the cost of accessories in general has probably been my only problem with RED's business model. I love everything else about RED and otherwise think their camera bodies are excellent value.

If RED sold a module that accepted standard 2.5" SSD's, I would never doubt RED's ethics or business model again. Even if the module was $1500, it would be an amazing gesture to offer such a product.

Yeah, media would be nice much cheaper. My 64 gb SSD was almost a G