Scarlet (and shipping) announcement Nov. 3rd...

[Philip Lipetz]

WARNING. Guessing may elevate your expectations beyond reasonable levels.

Jim

I'd like a 4K HDR RAW cam for $4K, but it's not going to happen soon, eventually but not now.

So, what would be a reasonable level of expectation? Something that would blow away existing price point competition. The most obvious is the AF100 $5k body, or the competeting Sony cams. If you want to shoot a big budget feature get an EPIC, but if you want to do a low budget the Panasonic and Sony cams are the low end of the feature market. So, for us to be to be thrilled on Nov. 3 all Jim has to do is redefine the low end. That is what he started out to do with Scarlet.

What would it take to make these Panasonic and Sony cams look outdated? HDR, by any name, would be enough for me. RAW is icing, but great for us documentary types. These thngs can be delivered more cheaply at 3K, or even 1080p. Yes, the future is 4k, but all RED has to do is blow away today's competition. Sony and Panasonic are today's low end competition, along with a couple of poorly funded $8-$10k cinema cam startups. Epic is not the competition, but we are speculating as if it is the benchmark to judge Scarlet. It is not.

Canon will be also competing against Sony and Panasonic with their Nov 3 cam, and Jim knows this. So, when Jim states that he will go head-to-head with Canon he is also stating that he going head to head with the Sony and Pannie cams. That is where we should start looking.

Now for a second part of this speculation, how can RED handle a reasonably featured Scarlet? It is not obvious. Huge issues of scale and support that are very different from the Epic market.

What if Canon is handling RED distribution? Or a Red sensor and DSP is in a Canon body? There was a huge maufacturing problem for Scarlet. Canon would have the resources to make and distribute Scarlet. Why would this be important?

RED's focus is the big budget film. They have to focus their resources on that, especially support. The sheer volume of Scarlet support would change the culture of RED. This would worry any CEO, and Jim has more than hinted that it worries him.

One thing that Jim has Been consistent about is keeping his eye on a single goal. His "man up" post said that here is what RED was going to do, and either like it or go elsewhere. Fair enough. Ask yourself how can he support the huge volume of Scarlet cams while still keeping his eye on his goal of redefining top end cameras?

Remember that after the "man up" post there was widespread speculation that Scarlet was going to be cancelled. That would have broken the heart of so many people. So, anything we get, even a JV with Canon, is a pure gift.

 

[Stephen Smith]

An S35 chip that shoots 3K with a HDR mode... Somewhere between 13k and no cheaper than 6k... This would dominate the market. If Red releases a prores module soon this would give Alexa a run for their money;-). I am happy with my Epic M but a scarlet like this would be great for those lower budget jobs that cant afford the horsepower of the epic. Whatever it is, count me in!

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

An S35 chip that shoots 3K with a HDR mode... Somewhere between 13k and no cheaper than 6k... This would dominate the market. If Red releases a prores module soon this would give Alexa a run for their money;-). I am happy with my Epic M but a scarlet like this would be great for those lower budget jobs that cant afford the horsepower of the epic. Whatever it is, count me in!

While anything is possible, if Red believes 4K is the future and their motto "Rendering obsolescence obsolete" still stands, then it seems unlikely Red will develop and market another 3K camera. It would, by Red's own view, be obsolescent before it was released.

 

[Eric Lange]

While anything is possible, if Red believes 4K is the future and their motto "Rendering obsolescence obsolete" still stands, then it seems unlikely Red will develop and market another 3K camera. It would, by Red's own view, be obsolescent before it was released.

Ditto:

I will probably get scorched and flamed for this but…it is respectfully submitted that a 3k “instrument” would be total "crazy town". It seems that that would cause RED more harm than good I think? Or am I missing something?

Cheers,

Eric

 

[Bjørn Vermo]

Ditto:

I will probably get scorched and flamed for this but…it is respectfully submitted that a 3k “instrument” would be total "crazy town". It seems that that would cause RED more harm than good I think? Or am I missing something?

Cheers,

Eric

It makes perfect sense to have a smaller and lighter camera in many situations. For a given angle of view and lens speed, the bulk and weight increases with the cube of the picture diagonal.
While I would have liked a 16mm-size sensor, the Scarlet with mini primes looks like a perfect match in an even lighter total package.

Given the size of the photodetector, increasing the resolution to 4k does not make sense. A good 50 ISO film will be hard put to resolve 3k with extremely low contrast at that size, and even so it will be a challenge to find a lens that is not the limiting factor. With 4k in the 2/3" size, you end up with 400 pixels/mm. You would need a lens that resolves > 100 lp/mm with high contrast to see any difference from 3k.

On the downside, you would obviously get less dynamic range and more noise than with the same technology used for a 3k sensor. 4k is doable for the Scarlet, but it is not desirable with the current level of technology.

 

[Eric Lange]

It makes perfect sense to have a smaller and lighter camera in many situations. For a given angle of view and lens speed, the bulk and weight increases with the cube of the picture diagonal.
While I would have liked a 16mm-size sensor, the Scarlet with mini primes looks like a perfect match in an even lighter total package.

Given the size of the photodetector, increasing the resolution to 4k does not make sense. A good 50 ISO film will be hard put to resolve 3k with extremely low contrast at that size, and even so it will be a challenge to find a lens that is not the limiting factor. With 4k in the 2/3" size, you end up with 400 pixels/mm. You would need a lens that resolves > 100 lp/mm with high contrast to see any difference from 3k.

On the downside, you would obviously get less dynamic range and more noise than with the same technology used for a 3k sensor. 4k is doable for the Scarlet, but it is not desirable with the current level of technology.

Hello Norway!

Yup, I’m not saying a 3k instrument is a bad idea I am saying I think a 3k instrument is a bad idea for RED (perhaps) given their main ideological plank, marketing and business model…unless they were feeling super generous somehow. Clearly there are a lot of people that like the idea of 3k.

However I don’t imagine that the form factor of a larger 4k sensor would have any significant impact on the external form factor of a Scarlet that is still narrow in the shoulder. If you look at industrial camera systems a wide range of sensor sizes are accommodated in a similar form factor. So I’m not 100% on the idea that bulk and weight increase “with the cube of the picture diagonal”; but that is an interesting way to visualize the problem as you mention it.

Cheers,

Eric

 

[Sergio Perez]

I sincerely hope this doesn't get me on the "shit list"

I was one of the most excited with the Scarlet and was definitely holding up for it, even after a small period of crisis were jumping to the F3 seemed like the only viable option for me. However, after seeing Joseph Hudson's truly inspiring example with his Epic-M I figured what the heck, I was willing to spend 22K for a used Red-One Misterium X or an S-Log f3 anyway (over here), why not go for the best digital cinema camera in the world? (Epic-X) ?

My current job security permits me to get a decent loan to purchase an Epic-X for my independent filmmaking passion. Epic warrants also a secure upgrade path with Red's commitment to complete modularity and obsolescence obsolete , and the passion the team puts behind their product and costumers, as those that have followed this forum for many years can see, are more than enough to assure this is a very good investment.

However, I know that without a business plan, or for those with mere artistic purposes, its a very big risk to invest in an almost 40K price tag camera. Technology evolves fast, and competition will mean constant development of hardware. For an independent artist, going 40K like me is almost "crazy". Epic is certainly not the "democratization of filmmaking" tool out there. This role will be, I hope, for the Scarlet.

The Scarlet, and call me a romantic, needs to be the true embodiment of Red's passion to empower filmmakers. It should be the "AK-47" of the Guerrilla filmmaking world, the camera from which every major short film festival's entries will be made of (and independent features festivals, too). The Scarlet should be the tool from which University students would learn to approach digital cinema, learn Digital cinema workflows, learn about cinematography, etc. For that, the Scarlet needs, in my humble opinion, to at least be on par to current digital cinema standards set by...The Red One, the camera Red used to revolutionize cinema in the first place.

The Scarlet needs to respond to the cry of the indie filmmaker/artist. For that I feel it needs to offer an S35 option. I think its unrealistic to aim for the 4K USD price range like many are wishing, but for a 13K price range. Because that's the price range the competition has currently settled for their 1080p offerings (Sony F3). So a Red One equivalent S35 4K resolution capable DSMC 13K ready to shoot package (excluding lens, of course) would truly revolutionize filmmaking. This price can be afforded by most independents (its expensive, yes, but "affordable") and would put in the hands of those less fortunate to have the budget to get an Epic to truly create stunning- ready for theatre and broadcast- work. In this camera, the most important thing would be to warrant amazing quality at 24/25p at 4K (Red's "Standard") with Red One or superior compression, while fast frame rates should be at about 120fps in 2K, more than enough for most indies. Of course, the more, the better, but I think this is more than reasonable. The interchangeable aspect of this camera is to truly allow creative freedom for artists to use different lenses, allowing them to express themselves through flexible cinematography. The democratization of filmmaking started with Red allowing the use of canon lenses with their Epic Canon mount as well as the Birger implementation on the Red One. More mounts should be made available to open up even more creative possibilities. The Scarlet should allow more freedom of choice for lenses.

However, I also understand the need for the 16mm Red Digital Cinema Camera. Red, as a company built to fulfill the role of taking cinema to the Digital era, should respond to this need of the 16mm film experience. 16mm is fantastic for documentary work or sports, guerrilla shooting. While I would shoot documentary with a S35 Scarlet if I had to choose between S35 or 2/3rds (I've shot a couple of S35 docs -7D- with very good results), I do understand the need for a quick, easy to focus, guerrilla shooter digital cinema camera. the 2/3rds should also be a great cam for 3D . The fixed Scarlet 2/3 seems like a great idea for those with really a very limited budget or in need of an ENG camera or for total guerrilla doc or sports coverage. It should be the ultimate "cinema perspective camera". The price range of the 2/3 rds models should be bellow 10K to truly democratize the 2/3rd, 1/2 and 1/3rd market. It should be the camera to end all those XA's, Z1, Ex's, and even my beloved HVX's. They should be the cameras that change the documentary film landscape. (and with it, would change the event coverage, the sports coverage, ENG landscape also).

The expectation is high and there are those that are going to be disappointed, no doubt. But one thing is for sure: Red's commitment to be THE company to push the digital cinema revolution is real and is all here for us to see. If you go to Red.com, do read red's description of the Scarlet. As an independent filmmaker, I trust those words of Red's commitment to the democratization of Filmmaking. I think that those waiting for an S35 Scarlet will not be disappointed, because, and that's in my view, of course, S35 was Red's approach for the Digital Cinema Revolution in the first place. This is the Digital Cinema image Red aimed for with their Red One. This is the Cinema standard that most of Independents aim to achieve. As for the price, I would say we need to be realistic. We want quality, reliable, with excellent support and warranty from RED like they are supplying for the Red One and Epic, so this camera cannot "cheap out" in order to stay in the DSLR's price points. I would be concerned if it was! (Then again, if it is, i wouldn't complain).

All in all, and staying realistic, as an independent filmmaker I would really wait with anticipation for November 3rd. And be ready to be trigger happy to order a Scarlet. Red, I'm sure, will not allow companies such as Sony, which flagged 1080p and 2/3 as "enough" for digital cinema, to allow them to be the "standard" at the below 20K price point, which they currently are with the S35 1080p Slog F3. And, November 3rd, Canon joins the party. Red knows what the competition is doing and I'm sure will not disappoint their main costumer base- DIgital Cinema Filmmakers like you and me.

 

[Bjørn Vermo]

Hello Norway!

Yup, I’m not saying a 3k instrument is a bad idea I am saying I think a 3k instrument is a bad idea for RED (perhaps) given their main ideological plank, marketing and business model…unless they were feeling super generous somehow. Clearly there are a lot of people that like the idea of 3k.

However I don’t imagine that the form factor of a larger 4k sensor would have any significant impact on the external form factor of a Scarlet that is still narrow in the shoulder. If you look at industrial camera systems a wide range of sensor sizes are accommodated in a similar form factor. So I’m not 100% on the idea that bulk and weight increase “with the cube of the picture diagonal”; but that is an interesting way to visualize the problem as you mention it.

Cheers,

Eric

It is not the body that increases in weight and bulk, it is the lenses. Simple laws of physics. And, more often than not, I find that my camera body is an attachment to the lens...

However, the processing power of the electronics inside the body will need to increase with higher resolution. So will power consumption and heat dissipation. There was not enough room inside the Scarlet body for the electronics needed for the s35-model, so it had to be upgraded to a low-end Epic instead.

In any case, there is obviously a need for a professional-quality digital camera to take the place of 16mm film. Now that Kodak has become a penny stock company struggling to remain solvent, I think Scarlet will be just the right thing at the right time. Paying 10k (when all pieces are added up) USD for a lighter replacement for the old Bolex and getting higher quality at the same time seems to be a good deal, and it looks like even many of the Epic-owners think so.

 

[Steven Hammer]

WARNING. Guessing may elevate your expectations beyond reasonable levels.

Jim

That's why I'm just going to be happy to get into the RED system with a Scarlet as previously specified. RAW, 3K, 120 fps, great native dynamic range, and HDRx? And the ability to upgrade to an Epic someday using all the same accessories? Anything more really is just gravy.

 

[Eric Lange]

It is not the body that increases in weight and bulk, it is the lenses. Simple laws of physics. And, more often than not, I find that my camera body is an attachment to the lens...

However, the processing power of the electronics inside the body will need to increase with higher resolution. So will power consumption and heat dissipation. There was not enough room inside the Scarlet body for the electronics needed for the s35-model, so it had to be upgraded to a low-end Epic instead.

In any case, there is obviously a need for a professional-quality digital camera to take the place of 16mm film. Now that Kodak has become a penny stock company struggling to remain solvent, I think Scarlet will be just the right thing at the right time. Paying 10k (when all pieces are added up) USD for a lighter replacement for the old Bolex and getting higher quality at the same time seems to be a good deal, and it looks like even many of the Epic-owners think so.

Gotcha. I mean I get what you mean.

It’s not so obvious to me… as I tend to think of the speed of the glass is one of the main factors for weight not just how long and not just size of image circle. But I work with a very diverse range of glass mainly for precision work so an odd mix of retro focal and non retro focal (biogon/symetical type) lenses, that are in a lot of cases not fast at all. BUT I see where you are coming from, the Bolex replacement angle.

I have to admit I don’t like small sensors with correspondingly small glass, just from the point of view of MTF and distortion, but for me it’s purely a technical requirement..BUT for 16MM Bolex idea that seems cool I think. One of my favorite films “Delicatessen” by the same director of Amile shot Delicatessen on 16mm. Having not seen it for well over a decade I looked at it again a few months ago and apart from being an amazing film, all that I could wish or really almost ache for was that they had shot it on 35mm in the first place.

The problem is I’m not sure given the way that Jim/REDTEAM views the future, especially as he seems to be all about passing the ball to where people are going to be rather than where they are now or where they were yesterday… I’m not super optimistic about a 3k device, but who know maybe we get 3.75K device (or nearest meaningful binary number).

Cheers,

Eric

 

[András Puiz]

Something about 3D would be nice. Will RED make its own mirror rig?

 

[felix p]

That's why I'm just going to be happy to get into the RED system with a Scarlet as previously specified. RAW, 3K, 120 fps, great native dynamic range, and HDRx? And the ability to upgrade to an Epic someday using all the same accessories? Anything more really is just gravy.

+1

cheers

 

[Phil Holland]

And, November 3rd, Canon joins the party. Red knows what the competition is doing and I'm sure will not disappoint their main costumer base- DIgital Cinema Filmmakers like you and me.

This is exactly why I think we'll see a S35 Scarlet or different sensor size "brains" for Scarlet and let the user decide which price point they want to play in. Red knows that Sony has two S35 bodies out in the $5k-$16k market. Canon will likely top out at $8k-$12k with their offering and it will likely be at a minimum S35 or closer to 1.6x.

In my mind (and likely everybody over at Red) there is a chance to steal this market outright by offering things like .r3D, HDRx, faster frame rates, interchangeable mounts, etc.

We do have to keep in mind that thus far none of the other companies have made "real 1080p" even. Canon rumored at 4k is nice, Red has hit the 4k target already and they have a mighty powerful sensor design backed by proven color science. For most users shooting for cinema and broadcast over the next 2 years 2k is still going to be the saturated market standard for delivery. The vast majority of features are still being delivered 2k and occasionally 4k. Plus we are seeing more and more 4k support everyday. It's also worth noting, yet no too important if you prefer digital delivery, that the current laser recoders mostly export out 4k. Many studios work in 2k and uprez and sharpen to 4k btw. It's a cost thing especially when it comes to post and VFX work. This will likely change though soon. Red is certainly right about 4k delivery being the future.

2k and 3k being fine for most users is interesting and could make the body viable for the next 2 to 3 years for independent shooters. The added benefit of having a lower resolution sensor is it's increased low light sensitivity. The Sony cameras are already seeing into the dark nicely. What we do know though about Red is that they like to push the technology and I'd bet a 4k sensor is in bounds to speculate on. But lets not get too crazy. They still have the Red One and Epic price points that they don't want to contend with.

Beyond all that, what Red knows is that Sony and Canon will have built in XLR ports and robust audio features on camera. Also if Red wants to penetrate the market of ENG style shooters perhaps they'll have a 1080p DNxHD or ProRes stream/mode so people can shoot with synced audio and send quickly.

This is literally one of those moments where Red could do anything and in a "ninja" fashion leave the larger "camcorder" company's jaws on the floor by giving us a fully fledged digital cinema camera near or below the current price points.

Me personally, I'm hoping for S35. I'd love for a FF35 offering as well, but I don't think we'll see that in a Scarlet body first, though I could be wrong especially when it comes to competing with FF35 still cameras. If Red produced a FF35 body Canon and especially Nikon would have to reconsider everything. Not to mention if it shipped with an optional Canon or Nikon mount. That would change that market landscape forever.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

WARNING. Guessing may elevate your expectations beyond reasonable levels.

Jim

I have pretty much avoided this thread (and this temptation) for the very reason that the guesses and speculations seem to get more and more outrageous. Personally, I would be very happy and satisfied if the Scarlet came out as the 3K, 120-150fps, 2/3" sensor, fixed lens model with HDRx that has been discussed. It's a dream camera. If it is priced around the $6K mark for the base package, even better. Who could ask for more? :001_cool:

 

[Jeremy W]

Beyond all that, what Red knows is that Sony and Canon will have built in XLR ports and robust audio features on camera. Also if Red wants to penetrate the market of ENG style shooters perhaps they'll have a 1080p DNxHD or ProRes stream/mode so people can shoot with synced audio and send quickly.

Don't forget that Scarlet (unless things have changed dramatically) will also have two built-in balanced audio inputs, they are just using a 3.5mm TRS connector instead of XLR. All that's needed to connect XLR mics is an XLR-to-TRS cable. I think this was just a form-factor choice on RED's part to keep things compact. I could be mistaken, but I believe the last time capabilities were discussed specifically audio recording was supposed to be 48bit/96kHz and phantom power was built-in as well. So Scarlet's audio features should be rather robust too.

 

[Jeremy W]

I have pretty much avoided this thread (and this temptation) for the very reason that the guesses and speculations seem to get more and more outrageous. Personally, I would be very happy and satisfied if the Scarlet came out as the 3K, 120-150fps, 2/3" sensor, fixed lens model with HDRx that has been discussed. It's a dream camera. If it is priced around the $6K mark for the base package, even better. Who could ask for more? :001_cool:

I agree. Scarlet Fixed was already my dream camera the last time RED shared specifics. I hope that they will still make a camera pretty close to that. If they've improved it since then, terrific. I kind of hope that the predictions of some posters: that there will not be a smaller-than-Super35 sensor Scarlet; that there will not be a less-than-4k Scarlet; or that there will not be a less-than-$10,000 Scarlet are off the mark.

 

[Kalani Prince]

Shock and Awe would be one of the quickest ways to erase the extended wait for Scarlet from the mushy mind. Offering whatever it comes out to be at "around 6k" would satisfy the very definition of shock and awe. C'mon RED.. Shock us and leave us in Awe!!

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

I have pretty much avoided this thread (and this temptation) for the very reason that the guesses and speculations seem to get more and more outrageous.

Problem is, Jim sort of encouraged it. Two different forward-looking statements that omitted Epic-S, yet for those interested in S "The camera you want is at the end of the year." Two references to the effect that what seemed like a good idea three years ago no longer looks like one. Scarlet referred to in the singular. Statements like "November 3rd is the day that RED announces all the changes to Scarlet," which seems to imply a significant number of changes to the specs and/or features mentioned previously. Timing the announcement in order to position Scarlet against what many believe (rightly or wrongly) will be Canon's 4K S35 or APS-C camera(s), leading to the obvious (though maybe erroneous) inference that Red would announce a >4K S35 Scarlet. Announcing the announcement nearly a month and a half ahead of time -- long enough for speculation to grow like a nasty colony of black mould. This isn't the first rash of wanton speculation, so Jim had to know it would happen.

Personally, I would be very happy and satisfied if the Scarlet came out as the 3K, 120-150fps, 2/3" sensor, fixed lens model with HDRx that has been discussed. It's a dream camera. If it is priced around the $6K mark for the base package, even better. Who could ask for more?

I agree -- I too like the 2/3-inch Scarlet with the specs we've heard up till now -- but there are those who want a low-end S35 camera who don't know what to believe. I think the ship of speculation has sailed.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...

I agree -- I too like the 2/3-inch Scarlet with the specs we've heard up till now -- but there are those who want a low-end S35 camera who don't know what to believe. I think the ship of speculation has sailed.

Boy, isn't THAT the truth - into gale force winds!! :laugh:

 

[Eric Lange]

It said in my horoscope that Scarlet will be:

Interchangable mount
S35 - 5K - 1-30 fps, no HDRx
windowded 2/3" - 3k - 1-120fps, HDRx upto 60p

Jay I think your posts are awesome and very even handed, and level headed (unlike mine).

However, I wonder if it was the suggestion of 5k and other things that might have triggered Jim’s comment that wild speculation is bad for your health…

Rest assured Nov 3rd will be mind blowing and send a major message to the competition. Jim seems like a consummate ring master to me. Anything could be announced it seems, all we know is that it might have the name Scarlet?

Ta.

Eric

So I see model differentiation more at frame rate than notional K.