Roger Deakins, ASC vs. 4K

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Ryan, I actually wrote to them the same minute I saw the clips. I want one! Not received an answer yet, but do you know what they cost? And also what 16mm lenses are the sexiest?

Maybe you could start an A-cam thread in the off-topic section, and we could continue the discussion there?

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Will do, when it isn't 5am and I can be more thorough and less rambly. (quick answer they're 11,000, and all 16mm lenses are sexy!)

back to deakins:

"the light, the light falling on an actor's face, that's all it's about for me"
and
"digital because you see the light in a person's eyes, they pop in a way they just don't on film."

you notice this in Prometheus as well... the human light, the contrast between white black and color in the eye. hell even book of Eli and Winding Refn's first movie Valhalla Rising have it too, both Red M perhaps. 4K might pose trouble for skin but it does great things for the eye...

 

[Dave Blackham]

WOW!. That prompted me to go looking at more of that ikonoskop footage. It looks AMAZING. I love it. Very, very film like. Beautiful powdery image feel. Incredible tones - very undigital. Are they practical to shoot and edit with?

Im on to the phone to Ikonoskop right now, Im well impressed by that and we have S16mm glass here.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Im definitly not in the right thread and probably not on the right board either, but since its been raised here if the Ikonoskop is CCD will standard film lenses be satisfactory as they are set up to image on one sensor plane not 3 as a CCD camera would usually need.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Some can argue that resolution is an aesthetic in itself.

No need to argue. It is.
The awareness and utilization of it vary.

Resolution = Clarity > Detail perception

 

[Harry Clark]

we should respect what Mr. Deakins has to say. He is one of the most talented cinematographers working today.
I own both Epics (2), Sony F3s (2), and an Alexa. I also have some DSLRs but under protest
They all have their strengths, uses, and price points. Whether someone is hiring me to shoot something, or simply to rent a package from me, I am prepared. Without, I might add, swearing allegiance to any one particular system, or putting a square peg in a round hole.
I also have a strong preference for Cooke S4 lenses. But I also own Zeiss Superspeeds and a range of Optimo and more vintage zooms. I choose what is right for a project, or fill a client's order without getting into a conversation about why their choice is a bad one. I don't insist that everyone use S4s!
Do I think more resolution is better? In general, yes. But "all other things" are not equal. Some cameras look more organic and some look less organic. Some offer a quick turnaround with simple bus-powered media. Some are bulletproof in construction but heavy. Some are flimsy but light.
Defending a camera or camera system because you have a financial interest (I can't believe I spent all this money on camera X but the producer wants me to use camera Y) or admiration for the company founder (Jim rocks! He's the next Steve Jobs!) is not a great idea.
Many posters on this thread have excellent points about each camera's strengths, and it is on the basis of these strengths that we should choose a particular camera for a particular project.
Cheers,
Harry

 

[M Most]

But truth is, lots of BIG BUDGET productions shooting on ALEXA do not use any RAW RECORDING. Both Downton Abbey and Game of Thrones come to mind.

I think the original post was referring to features. Both of the productions you just mentioned are television projects. I don't know of any television productions using Arri Raw. Every television production I know of on Alexa (and that means probably 85% of all US scripted network shows, as well as a large percentage of European shows) records to Prores444. On the feature side, many features are using ArriRaw, although I'm noticing an increase in those that aren't (they're going to Prores 444 as well). That's probably one of the reasons Arri is introducing 2K Prores in an upcoming software upgrade (a no-cost upgrade, BTW - can't imagine where they got that idea from.... ).

 

[Tim Morten]

we should respect what Mr. Deakins has to say. He is one of the most talented cinematographers working today.
[snip]
Defending a camera or camera system because you have a financial interest ... is not a great idea.

Is Deakins on the Arri payroll? Not certain one way or the other, but I was under the impression that he was.

http://www.arri.de/news.html?article=1057&cHash=062f656a06e6b6795f8a86da84a846f4

(I love how the copy text makes it sound like Alexa is a 4K camera... come on Arri, I thought resolution doesn't matter?)

 

[James T Mather]

I don't see anything in that article implying that Mr. Deakins is on the Arri payroll. Care to point out where you feel this is suggested?

 

[Jonas Klittmark]

If I remember correctly, Roger asked for an optical viewfinder for the RED but did not get the answer he wanted.

Can this be part of a slight personal bias against RED?

 

[António Fagundes]

And yet when I watch "Knowing" now, which I believe was shot on original M sensor, I enjoy looking at the picture as much as watching the movie itself. Maybe it was just someone, who could expose properly even within restricted range of old sensor. When I saw 2K trailer for Skyfall in IMAX I thought it was too soft and overexposed in bright sunlight (though you can recover the highlights in no time), so what, Roger likes it that way. Most of us aren't highly acclaimed super-professionals with enormous experience, some of us express their honest opinions on the subject, some keep it for themselves. So, anyone on the public forum, who isn't on his "level" should just shut up? I don't think so.

But its not your honest opinion, is it? Its biased and uninformed. Don't play the little innocent, honest professional nice guy, who just wants to share his 'honest' opinion with the world... because that's not what this is about. I was referring to people commenting on Roger's decision to shoot Alexa, on him being uninformed or somehow that just being a conspiracy against Red.

Its tragic that people actually think this.

 

[Nick Morrison]

But its not your honest opinion, is it? Its biased and uninformed. Don't play the little innocent, honest professional nice guy, who just wants to share his 'honest' opinion with the world... because that's not what this is about. I was referring to people commenting on Roger's decision to shoot Alexa, on him being uninformed or somehow that just being a conspiracy against Red.

Its tragic that people actually think this.

Antonio, with all due respect, I think your looking for a fight. This thread has been incredibly respectful of Mr.Deakins. He's a hero to so many. Yes there may be some dismay that he works on Alexa, and has publicly rebuked RED on his blog, but...on this thread...on a RED forum no less....everyone has been incredibly respectful and even honest about the virtues of the Alexa. I think that would represent over 70% or 80% of the tone on this thread right now. If you want to troll through the remaining 20% and look for any RED wounded pride, you can, but I think that's mis-reading the sentiment of the majority of posters on this topic.

Mr.Deakins is an artist, should have an Oscar already, and he's free to chose whatever tool he pleases. I think it goes without saying that many people on these boards hope that...one day...he finds the right project to use RED on...but for the time being...its a joy to just watch him work, regardless of the camera he us using.

 

[Chuck Z]

I thought I read somewhere that Game of Thrones S2 was shot in ARRIRAW as opposed to S1 recording via SxS ProRes.

Also, has anyone heard anything lately about the Weiss T-CAM? I believe they're making 2/3", S16 and S35 models capable of shooting 300 FPS+.

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Mr.Deakins is an artist, should have an Oscar already, and he's free to chose whatever tool he pleases. I think it goes without saying that many people on these boards hope that...one day...he finds the right project to use RED on...but for the time being...its a joy to just watch him work, regardless of the camera he us using.

I agree, this thread has been a joy to read. I also hope he will go for Red on a project in the future, it would be a joy to see how he would use it. Maybe Dragon will seduce him? Anyway, I think many cinematographers distaste for Red has a lot to do with their testosterone induced industrial design. I.e. calling a viewfinder BOMB is not exactly tasteful, but on the other hand, I would rather shoot a hard-core action flick on RED, than any other camera system. But an interrail love story in Europe? Maybe A-cam?

 

[Nick Morrison]

I thought I read somewhere that Game of Thrones S2 was shot in ARRIRAW as opposed to S1 recording via SxS ProRes.

Hey Chuck, not sure. The American Cinematographer article only covered Season 1! But it wouldn't surprise me...that show is SO high budget and breathtaking...it would make sense they are all RAW now. Especially considering all the FX shots they are starting to use (dragons, battles, cities, etc)

 

[Rodrigo Prata]

Talking resolution, doesn`t shooting anamorphic on Alexa`s 4:3 sensor offer the same vertical resolution as shooting WS with an EPIC? And actually MORE them with a Scarlet? (Although with the Scarlet you would have to crop it in post)

I know that you could shoot anamorphic with an EPIC as well (or a Scarlet for the matter), but my point is that resolution wise, the gap is now narrower and maybe less of a decision factor when choosing a EPIC or an ALEXA for a given project (let`s say one that is suposed to have an IMAX version for instace...).

 

[Nick Morrison]

Talking resolution, doesn`t shooting anamorphic on Alexa`s 4:3 sensor offer the same vertical resolution as shooting WS with an EPIC? And actually MORE them with a Scarlet? (Although with the Scarlet you would have to crop it in post)

I know that you could shoot anamorphic with an EPIC as well (or a Scarlet for the matter), but my point is that resolution wise, the gap is now narrower and maybe less of a decision factor when choosing a EPIC or an ALEXA for a given project (let`s say one that is suposed to have an IMAX version for instace...).

According to Arri's own site, the Alexa at 4:3 offers "up to 2880x2160" resolution.

According to wikipedia, the Epic at 5K WS shoots at "5120x2134".

They both seem to have the same height (2160 vs 2134)...not sure what the width difference brings (2880 vs 5120), and how much of that gets cropped out on the Epic.

I'm sure the upcoming DRAGON will change these numbers, though.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

I think Rodrigo is referring to the desqueeze, which results in a net resolution gain, just as on 35mm.

 

[Dave Blackham]

There was mention in one of the earlier links that the MX sensor was a repurposed 'industrial' sensor which I think is very misleading.

quote d) human texture and color (Arri modeled their sensor off Vision 3, Red repurposed an industrial sensor)

I guess it is as its industry leading but so far as I know Red have developed it, and its very good I have to say. Whilst we know the history as its been reported here please could we hear the origins and history to correct the comment.

 

[Ian Vertovec]

Hey Chuck, not sure. The American Cinematographer article only covered Season 1! But it wouldn't surprise me...that show is SO high budget and breathtaking...it would make sense they are all RAW now. Especially considering all the FX shots they are starting to use (dragons, battles, cities, etc)

Season 1 was HDcamSR. s2 & s3 were Codex Jpeg2000 at 3:1. AC isn't always 100% on the post side of things.

I don't know of any TV that uses ArriRAW. maybe ask Arri?