Roger Deakins, ASC vs. 4K

[Delon]

Roger Deakins is a genius, one of the finest DPs out there. If Alexa is his choice so be it

What he said.

 

[Rodrigo Prata]

My point is that you can actually have more height resolution when shooting with a Alexa then with a RED Camera (let`s say a Scarlet). Even the EPIC WS vs The Alexa Anamorphic will have the same height resolution ( I know I`m comparing apples to oranges here).

I thinks it`s very interesting how polemic this has become! I don`t think this topic would be half as controversial if we where talking about any other cinematographer besides Roger Deakins (Even Robert Richardson said that the Alexa is the best digital camera out today and no one is making a big deal about it...). The fact is that every body likes Roger Deakins, and every body here wish that he would just see RED with better eyes (I know I wish, he is the guy that inspired me to become a cinematographer). Maybe we are all just too upset and jealous that he prefers the Alexa...

Maybe RED should invite him to test the Dragon when it`s ready... I think every body would love that...

 

[Nick Morrison]

Season 1 was HDcamSR. s2 & s3 were Codex Jpeg2000 at 3:1. AC isn't always 100% on the post side of things.

I don't know of any TV that uses ArriRAW. maybe ask Arri?

Wow! Thanks for sharing Ian! So they tethered the Alexas to HDCAM-SR decks on S1? I still find that workflow so hard to believe. Their outside in freezing Iceland, and their cabled up to decks.

Then again, I think that's how the DP of Drive worked too, with an HDCAM-SR deck in the TRUNK of the car. NUTS!

 

[Carlos Reyes]

I find it interesting that Newton Thomas Sigel, ASC chose to shoot Jack the Giant Killer on Epics even thought Drive is many times the example given to argue that Alexa's image quality is better, more filmic, etc. and on a broader scope that digital is ready to take over film. The fact that its 3D might have had a lot to do with the decision but still I find it interesting and I'm excited to see the results. Maybe Jack the Giant Killer can do for Epic what Drive did for Alexa.

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

Maybe Jack the Giant Killer can do for Epic what Drive did for Alexa.

Which is?
Sorry Carlos, I really don't want to sound to harsh and this is not really directed at you, but that sentence doesn't make much sense to me.

None of those 2 cameras (Epic and Alexa) has anything to prove. They've been around for a while, they've both been used in mega-productions as well as in smaller indie films, and if there's one thing to learn is that both are capable of producing amazing images when they're put in the right hands. If Jack the Giant Killer looks great, it will prove one thing and one thing only: i.e. Newton Thomas Sigel is a great cinematographer, with any camera, but we already know that, don't we?

Wolski has shot great material with the Epic, and also with the Alexa (commercials).
Same thing goes for Prieto.
And Lubezki.
And so many more, very well known (and not) cinematographers.

I can't believe I'm saying this for the 1200th time, but the differences between the cameras, in real world scenarios, are far fewer than the similarities. Some may pick one because they like the size, others may pick the other because of the user interface, and a lot of people prefer one system. A large number of people are fine shooting with both systems. In the end, if you know your craft, you can easily use both and have the same results. The emphasis on the tools we use is growing old, and tired.

There's an old joke which was forwarded to me (again) via mail earlier today. It goes something like this. A photographer is showing his pictures at a reception for a wedding, and the cook compliments him by saying "wow, those pictures are awesome, your camera must be really great!". And the photographer replies "thank you! the food you made for tonight's reception is amazing. Your pots and pans must be the best!".

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

From what I've been testing lately , I know I'd even get a camera with higher resolution if Red would make it in the future, and can come up with another 100 reasons why it even would make sense to have a 5k camera that is able to do 300 fps, just because when you get used to such options,
you want to do it in the highest resolution possible as you're shooting anyhting else without any restrictions.
You just can't imagine how much we rely on resolution in post today.
We are used to several techniques that require such abilities, so whatever Roger is saying and promoting or choosing Alexa, i totally disagree.
This being said as shooter, editor and being envolved in all aspects of a production.

 

[Carlos Reyes]

Which is?
Sorry Carlos, I really don't want to sound to harsh and this is not really directed at you, but that sentence doesn't make much sense to me.
t!".

Dude, we are one the same page, but that said other people dont understand these points and so to them they here this movie was shot on Alexa and they say OMG this is why I choose alexa over RED. I was speaking to a producer who didnt know Social Network, pirates of the caribbean 4, or girl with the dragon tattoo were shot on RED, there exact words were "Wow! theres no way that was RED, it looked just like film!" I know as much as anyone that a million other factors and choices go into the final images we see on the screen. But even people in the industry still think the difference between cameras in a real world situation will change everything, that on a production shot on RED everything will go wrong, so even though amazing films have been shot on RED, for many people its still proving its value. And Jack the Giant Killer, along with Flight, and others to come will continue to prove its worth. thats what I meant.

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

Dude, we are one the same page, but that said other people dont understand these points and so to them they here this movie was shot on Alexa and they say OMG this is why I choose alexa over RED. I was speaking to a producer who didnt know Social Network, pirates of the caribbean 4, or girl with the dragon tattoo were shot on RED, there exact words were "Wow! theres no way that was RED, it looked just like film!" I know as much as anyone that a million other factors and choices go into the final images we see on the screen. But even people in the industry still think the difference between cameras in a real world situation will change everything, that on a production shot on RED everything will go wrong, so even though amazing films have been shot on RED, for many people its still proving its value. And Jack the Giant Killer, along with Flight, and others to come will continue to prove its worth. thats what I meant.

got it. Thanks, Carlos.

(and for the proucer who thinks those movies looked like film, I suggest to get his eyes checked)

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

There's an old joke which was forwarded to me (again) via mail earlier today. It goes something like this. A photographer is showing his pictures at a reception for a wedding, and the cook compliments him by saying "wow, those pictures are awesome, your camera must be really great!". And the photographer replies "thank you! the food you made for tonight's reception is amazing. Your pots and pans must be the best!".

Actually that is not a joke. Because good cooks use good tools - knives, pots, plates, glasses etc. But if they had no choice but to use crap tools, they would find a way to cope.

EDIT: Who among you would not choose a crystal glass from which to drink his wine, as opposed to an inferior one?

 

[Ketch Rossi]

This is more in my kind of thinking...

http://red.cachefly.net/RIDLEY.mov


Also I just like ot add that while Rogers specifically said that one of his major points of attraction to the Alexa were the fact of being able to keep eyes Sharp unlike Film, well, then He seriously needs to look a a 5k file from the RED EPIC against that of the Alexa Up Rez'd to 4k...

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

Actually that is not a joke. Because good cooks use good tools - knives, pots, plates, glasses etc. But if they had no choice but to use crap tools, they would find a way to cope.

EDIT: Who among you would not choose a crystal glass from which to drink his wine, as opposed to an inferior one?

Touchè, Karim.

I guess the point of the joke is that, as it unfortunately happens quite often these days, the emphasis is on the tools, not on the craft.

Of course I'd choose real glass instead of plastic to drink wine, as I would pick an Epic or an Alexa instead of a miniDV any day (unless there was a real good reason to choose the latter). All I'm saying is that when talking about top-notch crystal glass, I think the differences become less significant.
Deakins would have made a great job with the Epic on Skyfall. Wolski would have made a great job on Prometheus with the Alexa. I'm not a mega-fan of any of the 2 cameras, I like them for what they allow me to do. I try to keep an open mind, and as interesting as it is to hear Masters talk about their camera choices, I'm far more interested in how they approach the story, how they light, and how they deal with specific problems. But that's me..

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

This is more in my kind of thinking...

http://red.cachefly.net/RIDLEY.mov


Also I just like ot add that while Rogers specifically said that one of his major points of attraction to the Alexa were the fact of being able to keep eyes Sharp unlike Film, well, then He seriously needs to look a a 5k file from the RED EPIC against that of the Alexa Up Rez'd to 4k...

im sure Roger dont have any idea about whats 5K so why dont you teach him about this new stuff? You seem like best DP in the world with big K's.i dont understand how can you be sure about he didnt shot on epic ?
just stop harassing people because of they dont shoot on red epic..its childish

 

[Ketch Rossi]

im sure Roger dont have any idea about whats 5K so why dont you teach him about this new stuff? You seem like best DP in the world with big K's.i dont understand how can you be sure about he didnt shot on epic ?
just stop harassing people because of they dont shoot on red epic..its childish

Always enjoyed and respected your posts and opinion, but make no mistake here... Even the best of the best, has always something to learn...

Also since all the tests done of EPIC against ALEXA at 4k with ARRI RAW, clearly demonstrated that EPIC produced clearly SHARPER images, and Rogers points out of how much He wanted Sharper eyes, the choice seemed pretty clear to me, so no, I don't think I'll stop trying to let people know what I know is the best solution for a given results, which in this case was 4k, and the best 4K results is surely not achieved with the Alexa, but with EPIC...

 

[James T Mather]

I'm afraid I've gone over the wall and purchased an Arri Alexa this week. I'm joining Mr. Deakins in his corner and see what the view is like from there for a while.

I will keep my two Epics and my Red and look forward to the Dragon sensor, but after much thinking on the subject have decided to explore the aspects of the other system that I have been desiring for a while. I simply like the images that it produces - I find I miss the often-derided film-look, I like it's film-like "distance" that cannot be replicated on Red - or at least, I've never seen it. Don't get me wrong, Red is terrific - but the look is always definitively "Red". Some prefer it to film, some don't. I personally prefer the film look.

Much hay has been raised over the film look here - that it is non-existent, that it is old-fashioned, that it is fluid and subject to a million different interpretations etc - all of these might be true for some of you, but for me, I find the images that over-sharp electronic cameras produce to be quite ugly. Someone recently showed me frames of footage from a certain camera and lens combo as being how good they were and all I could think is how horribly ugly the image is, how boringly devoid of the most important thing : soul.

This is my big bugbear with electronic systems and zesty supersharp glass. And people will tell you that you can do this stuff in post - well, I disagree - you can add lens flare, and veiling glare, and narcissus, and warmth, and diffusion, and halation, and CA, and everything in post - except for two things: that it always looks ugly and post-added and more importantly: It doesn't add soul to the image.

No question that as an engineering pissing-contest the images are sharp and bright etc but what struck me is how devoid of any life they were. It seems to me that people have fallen in love with resolution, and charts, and testing, and spreading the gospel of whatever camera they KNOW is the best FOR EVERYONE but have lost any kind of touch with the process's main raison-d'etre: To create images that feel.

This is not directed at anyone in particular but more of a feeling I am getting recently - All this : "I can't wait for 12K TVs" and "Everything must be shot this way or people are idiots because I've brought into a brand and not a philosophy" strikes me as juvenile fanaticism - And this fanaticism is only remotely connected with the job of cinematography in my opinion.

I look forward to seeing the Dragon and hope that some of the image feel that film had - that cinematic distance - is considered, not just resolution.

I'm still a supporter of Red - I will continue to purchase their great cameras. They are a great company who will thrive, no question - and they should be proud that they managed to get the electronic cinema industry kickstarted by pulling a mini-industrial-revolution with their groundbreaking cameras and delivery systems - but they are a company after all. Like Apple. Like Avid. Like Microsoft. Like Arri.

I feel it is unwise to latch your philosophical beliefs to a company if it is you job to be an unbiased working cameraman. But that's just my opinion.

 

[David W. Jones]

Actually that is not a joke. Because good cooks use good tools - knives, pots, plates, glasses etc. But if they had no choice but to use crap tools, they would find a way to cope.

EDIT: Who among you would not choose a crystal glass from which to drink his wine, as opposed to an inferior one?

Well I own some of the best knifes, pots & pans made. But they do not magically transform my cooking into something that equals what a top chef would produce. In the same regard shooting with a top end camera, insert Epic and Alexa here, does not guarantee great results. As we approach 2013 the tools we have at our disposal have gotten quite good, but they are just that, tools. Without the talent to drive these tools to their fullest capability, they produce mediocre results at best. I'm sure I'm going to piss off the fanboys out their, but it honestly isn't about the camera, it's about the talent.

All the Best!

Dave

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

Dear James, I agree 100%.

Especially with this:

....but more of a feeling I am getting recently - All this : "I can't wait for 12K TVs" and "Everything must be shot this way or people are idiots because I've brought into a brand and not a philosophy" strikes me as juvenile fanaticism - And this fanaticism is only remotely connected with the job of cinematography in my opinion.

and this...

I feel it is unwise to latch your philosophical beliefs to a company if it is you job to be an unbiased working cameraman. But that's just my opinion.

Thanks

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

Well I own some of the best knifes, pots & pans made. But they do not magically transform my cooking into something that equals what a top chef world produce. In the same regard shooting with a top end camera, insert Epic and Alexa here, does not guarantee great results. As we approach 2013 the tools we have at our disposal have gotten quite good, but they are just that, tools. Without the talent to drive these tool to their fullest capability, they produce mediocre results at best. I'm sure I'm going to piss off the fanboys out their, but it honestly isn't about the camera, it's about the talent.

..which is the point of the joke, by the way.

As you so rightly put it, Dave, it's not about using those tools (or owning them), it's about how you use them. Maybe the old example about the pencil and the piece of paper would sound better in this context...I should've posted that one

 

[neale-anderson]

To messengers Mather and Jones , [h=1]Hallelujah[/h]

 

[Andrew Burhoe]

Who cares if he didn't shoot 4K. The man obviously has eyes we don't and will make the color black look amazing if he had too.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Maybe the old example about the pencil and the piece of paper would sound better in this context...I should've posted that one

Yes.

Who cares if he didn't shoot 4K.

I don't think anyone cares about that per se. I think that's a strawman. We may find his choices puzzling, though he has the right to chose X and we have the right to comment on that. One thing that we must never do is appeal to authority unless it is a merely supplemental or peripheral to the main point. If I think that a master DP or director is full of shit - which rarely happens - then I will say so and say why. Words are free and they can also be freely ignored.