Roger Deakins, ASC vs. 4K

[Ryan De Franco]

Blair, you said something that bears repeating. Red offers self-determination; Arri offers the most familiar path. In one of I don't know how many fair and brilliant posts, you put it like this--

Red would prefer to give it's constituents the greatest level of individual control. The greatest resolution in the most undeveloped format. (You might say this ideology carries over to camera construction.) The path is new, but it can be entirely your own.

Blue would prefer to give its constituents a continued lease on a life. A sensor that mimics 7219 and a workflow, for colorists and camerafolk both, that match old habit and expectation.

Take out the part about sensors and you could be describing a classic conservative / liberal debate. Do you want to do everything your way, or do you want quite a bit of guidance built into how you live and work, prosper and fail? As Blair pointed out, "camera teams with the time and budget for expensive testing" broke new ground with the Red system. While I have seen childish DPs who can't be bothered to tell their gaffers a thing about the light, shooting LogC of course, no one knows how terrible it looked before the colorist stepped in. (Plenty of utter crap has been shot MX, I know because I've shot some of it.)

So many intelligent comments have been made, I hope this reductionist shit doesn't reflect badly on everyone. But carefully reading and considering what you wrote inspired this odd line of thought.

 

[Ian Vertovec]

I would even go so far as to suggest that grading toolsets honed over the years for best results with log sources often fail to do justice to the linear scale. If I have that wrong I would love to be taken to school by someone who can explain why. Seriously, I really want to know. I have had some smart cookies tell me that the reason that some of the best looking RED shot material went to log DPX files via RedLogFilm was not just because there were VFX elements involved or because it simplified DI, but because it made it easier to achieve the look being asked for in the bay. They assert log grading techniques get better results faster.

Hey Blair,

All the most experienced people are used to working with film scans, so whatever closely resembles a film scan should be what those people prefer.

Also, log encoding is the most efficient use of the code values available in a 10 bit file. Highlight and shadow details are very evenly distributed. A lot of the code values in a linear light file are unused, like a very large bottle with a small amount of water in it.

ACES, for example, would never work at 10bit. The RRT-ODT would redistribute too few code values over too large a range, and you'd be left with nothing but noise. The only reason ACES works is the EXR half-float file has the range for it.

So really, I think log is popular for both efficiency and familiarity reasons.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Well as long as we are keeping it political, I think shooting Alexa is a lot like electing a polygamist to "strengthen marriage". It just makes no sense to shoot to pro res when the camera should be getting a fat negative...

but it works for some folks.... though for the record if were gonna shoot baked in, couldn't we shoot on a much cheaper camera?

Blair, you said something that bears repeating. Red offers self-determination; Arri offers the most familiar path. In one of I don't know how many fair and brilliant posts, you put it like this--

Red would prefer to give it's constituents the greatest level of individual control. The greatest resolution in the most undeveloped format. (You might say this ideology carries over to camera construction.) The path is new, but it can be entirely your own.

Blue would prefer to give its constituents a continued lease on a life. A sensor that mimics 7219 and a workflow, for colorists and camerafolk both, that match old habit and expectation.

Take out the part about sensors and you could be describing a classic conservative / liberal debate. Do you want to do everything your way, or do you want quite a bit of guidance built into how you live and work, prosper and fail? As Blair pointed out, "camera teams with the time and budget for expensive testing" broke new ground with the Red system. While I have seen childish DPs who can't be bothered to tell their gaffers a thing about the light, shooting LogC of course, no one knows how terrible it looked before the colorist stepped in. (Plenty of utter crap has been shot MX, I know because I've shot some of it.)

So many intelligent comments have been made, I hope this reductionist shit doesn't reflect badly on everyone. But carefully reading and considering what you wrote inspired this odd line of thought.

 

[James T Mather]

The same way it makes no sense to shoot 5d - but it's happening more and more. I think it would be a good option to have the choice. Producers are not technicians - all they know is that they're paying for a transcode with one system and not with another. This is enough to tip the balance in these economic times. Also Epic file sizes have raised quite a few eyebrows at the post houses here. Much pleading to shoot 2k for Commercials. I resist this because I like the DOF at 5k but I'm speaking as a cameraman, not a producer or an editor.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

The same way it makes no sense to shoot 5d - but it's happening more and more. I think it would be a good option to have the choice. Producers are not technicians - all they know is that they're paying for a transcode with one system and not with another. This is enough to tip the balance in these economic times. Also Epic file sizes have raised quite a few eyebrows at the post houses here. Much pleading to shoot 2k for Commercials. I resist this because I like the DOF at 5k but I'm speaking as a cameraman, not a producer or an editor.

Except when they ask to have the Prores 444 LOG-C files transcoded to ProRes 422 Rec709 which happens more often than it might seem.

 

[Tom.Wong]

Except when they ask to have the Prores 444 LOG-C files transcoded to ProRes 422 Rec709 which happens more often than it might seem.

which is pretty much almost every shoot. Nobody wants to edit in log c, nor do they wanna show it in log c. and adding a CC during the edit to bring back contrast only slows down the system and doesn't accurately represent what the DP wanted it to look like.

fact of the matter is, transcoding is always part of the process. doesn't matter what camera, post houses want a uniform codec they can offline with that is color accurate to what the DP wants on set. Major difference's though, 1080 pro res takes up a lot less hard drive space. and depending on what you are using, you can get 2-3x faster than real time on your transcodes with pro res with less hardware compared to transcoding r3d.

other than that, principles of the workflow are the same. it's an absolute illusion that there's no transcode step in the pipeline with going with Alexa.

DP's, like Deakins, simply choose their camera because they turn it on, and they like what they see. you can scrutinize all the science and pixels, and everything there is about camera tech. that's the bottom line for most DP's. they do their tests, and they feel it's the best image for them. no other explanation is needed or should be needed.

same applies with epic, or any other camera on the market.

and it took a long time for Deakins to get his feet wet with digital in itself, and now he's finally comfortable. He has every right to change his mind about 4k just as he has with digital. He just needs to see something that he likes in 4k, and he'll find something he wants to shoot at that resolution. Everything seems to be a creative choice for him. from the camera, to the format, to the resolution. Some can argue that resolution is an aesthetic in itself.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

IIRC you can set the Alexa to record in ProRes HQ 4:2:2 NOT Log-C and avoid transcoding all together if that's actually the issue. That would really hang you out to dry if the images needed any significant treatment in grading. Of course one might argue you might as well shoot an F3 to a KiPro/Gemini/etc at that point...

IAC, I agree with those who point to how familiar the Alexa feels to experienced film crews. I also think there is some currency in offering a digital alternative that is more point and shoot. For many of us the manipulation of digital files, transcoding, scaling, conforming, "developing" RAW into RGB, etc are straightforward and easily repeatable tasks - but not for everyone.

While the quote "with great power comes great responsibility" is a bit over the top, it does speak to some growing pains at this point in the evolution of how media is handled. RED has chosen a bold path in search of great imagery and long tail asset value by taking the RAW high resolution route. The Alexa and its ecosystem is more of a transitional approach, aimed at easing the move into digital and leaving themselves room to market a replacement in a couple of years. As noted previously, the contrast in their underlying philosophies is analogous to the political scene these days - though hopefully with less obfuscation, but let's not start down that road... ;-D

Cheers - #19

 

[Daniel Dávila]

We are all RED users here, so we like RED's philosophy, resolution, redraw, etc... and as artists, we know what tool is the right for the job, Alexa and Epic both have their pros and cons, etc... That said, many of us are also making business renting our equipment and as much we like and love RED, what matters is that everybody else loves RED, and at the present time, more and more people likes Alexa over Red, maybe for the wrong reasons, but that's what happen now.
What we need is to change their minds and if they doesn't understand the good reasons, so we (owners and Red themselves) need to search for other ways to convince people (to have the best camera is not enough).

 

[António Fagundes]

Funny how so many people here are actually pissed at Roger for liking the Alexa more. Don't you people find that just a little ridiculous?

Most of you here don't even shoot, and even if you do, not at his level. He likes the Alexa, good for him. What do you want? Everyone using Red?

None of the cameras on the market have full disclosure of their camera's computing architecture. None. There just are things that none of us don't know. So, for any of you to say that Red is better because of this or that, is just making artificial facts. Same with the Alexa.

Roger's problem with Red is more a matter of trust than the actual capabilities of the camera. Red has approached Roger long ago, I believe at the time of Red Mysterium. Now we all know how embarrassingly bad that image was, you could shoot a guy in a white t-shirt without it clipping! And when Roger disapproved of it, and made his suggestions, Red behaved like some of you still behave today, saying it was the best camera in the world, be it digital or film!

Who can trust or like a company after such a claim/attitude?

To be honest when I saw In Time, it was the first digital short feature that I honestly thought, ok - this is it. Film is dead. The same happened when I saw The Social Network, and since then, great works of art have been shot digitally on both cameras, be it in cinema or TV, like Mr Mullen's outstanding work on 'Smash'. No matter what camera these extremely talented people are using, I don't care. And you shouldn't either.

Great interview by the way, thanks for posting.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

IIRC The Alexa and its ecosystem is more of a transitional approach, aimed at easing the move into digital and leaving themselves room to market a replacement in a couple of years. As noted previously, the contrast in their underlying philosophies is analogous to the political scene these days - though hopefully with less obfuscation, but let's not start down that road... ;-D

Cheers - #19

+1... and if history repeats itself, then the next generation of ARRI cameras will have a larger imager and a higher price point.

Look for those ARRIS to be "available for rental only" for most users.

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

Now we all know how embarrassingly bad that image was, you could shoot a guy in a white t-shirt without it clipping!

And yet when I watch "Knowing" now, which I believe was shot on original M sensor, I enjoy looking at the picture as much as watching the movie itself. Maybe it was just someone, who could expose properly even within restricted range of old sensor. When I saw 2K trailer for Skyfall in IMAX I thought it was too soft and overexposed in bright sunlight (though you can recover the highlights in no time), so what, Roger likes it that way. Most of us aren't highly acclaimed super-professionals with enormous experience, some of us express their honest opinions on the subject, some keep it for themselves. So, anyone on the public forum, who isn't on his "level" should just shut up? I don't think so.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

1. Yeah but for a guy who didn't speak on resolution, competition,color pipelines or attitude, he seems to have engaged an audience far away from the hall in Amsterdam. Good on him. This is what every camera discussion could use more of-- respect for an artist's choice...

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

...and overexposed in bright sunlight (though you can recover the highlights in no time), so what, Roger likes it that way. Most of us aren't highly acclaimed super-professionals with enormous experience, some of us express their honest opinions on the subject, some keep it for themselves. So, anyone on the public forum, who isn't on his "level" should just shut up? I don't think so.

The sun is bright. I always love it sitting in a cinema when the screen lit up like this. Roger Deakins uses this technique a lot, and it works, and it looks beautiful. Making an interesting picture is about something else than correctly exposing and lighting a scene according to some established norms.

Actually, Red Scarlet/Epic was the first electronic cameras that I've used that made it possible to achieve really bright outdoors without burning the highlights. I guess there are only three and a half electronic S-35 cameras that can do this? Epic/Scarlet, F65 and ALEXA?

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

but it works for some folks.... though for the record if were gonna shoot baked in, couldn't we shoot on a much cheaper camera?

Are you serious? You do realise that the Alexa produces fantastic looking images? And that LOG-C is quite flexible, and that most high-end Alexa productions shoot raw?

But even connected to a tape deck, Alexa can offer something unique:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe6eOqheva8
(perhaps the most aesthetically pleasing looking digitally shot film I've seen)

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Ikonoskop... but it will burn you in the little pocket highlights if you don't look out for them

I too love the cut from a "normal" or dim scene to bright as bright gets outdoors. Suddenly seeing everyone's face in the theater is a thrill. If I remember right the "working class" day scenes from In Time feel like this (or at least they did on a 4:3 airplane screen, sorry Roger!). If not the white sky, a good example of sun drenched, perhaps mildly underexposed filmic highlight comes through in these:

https://vimeo.com/30202431

https://vimeo.com/32047928

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Ikonoskop... but it will burn you in the little pocket highlights if you don't look out for them

I too love the cut from a "normal" or dim scene to bright as bright gets outdoors. Suddenly seeing everyone's face in the theater is a thrill. If I remember right the "working class" day scenes from In Time feel like this (or at least they did on a 4:3 airplane screen, sorry Roger!). If not the white sky, a good example of sun drenched, perhaps mildly underexposed filmic highlight comes through in these:

https://vimeo.com/30202431

https://vimeo.com/32047928

Looks fantastic!

 

[Nick Morrison]

Are you serious? You do realise that the Alexa produces fantastic looking images? And that LOG-C is quite flexible, and that most high-end Alexa productions shoot raw?

But even connected to a tape deck, Alexa can offer something unique:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe6eOqheva8
(perhaps the most aesthetically pleasing looking digitally shot film I've seen)

I love that you know that DRIVE was shot on tape. That's one of my favorite stories about DRIVE. They had a f*cking huge assed HD-CAM SR deck "rolling" the whole time in the back trunk of that car. It's recording 10bit 4:4:4, so yeah...they had plenty to grade from.

But truth is, lots of BIG BUDGET productions shooting on ALEXA do not use any RAW RECORDING. Both Downton Abbey and Game of Thrones come to mind. I read both their production articles in American Cinematographer and both shows were shooting straight to S-LOG Apple Pro Res Quicktimes. There was no mention of any RAW at all. Actually, on Downtown Abbey their footprint seemed quite small, and the DP talked about how they'd recycle a pretty small batch of cards every day.

 

[James T Mather]

WOW!. That prompted me to go looking at more of that ikonoskop footage. It looks AMAZING. I love it. Very, very film like. Beautiful powdery image feel. Incredible tones - very undigital. Are they practical to shoot and edit with?

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Yes... I love it too.... very hard decision, two years of savings into a Scarlet or Ikonoskop... went with Red but the A-Cam is a whole nother flavor of awesome.

I think it's fair to discuss here because it complements Red and doesn't aim to compete with anyone, just exist as a fantastic little creation. A 16mm with less sensitivity and dynamic range exists as a separate tool, which is a good thing, I like a camera that's radically different.

It is incredible fun to shoot Ikonoskop alongside Red. We shoot broadcast commercials and art films for fashion/retail clients; for years used 16mm as a B-camera for Red One and Epic footage. The Ikonoskop is a 2012 replacement for the Bolex. Fits right into your hand, easy to focus as an operator, looks different but intercuttable (for our needs) with Red. It's a strange, sexy image out of the camera with a ton of room for freedom in post. It grades very, very well; expose to control highlights then raise mid tone to where you want it in post.

Like mildly underexposed Velvia.

When first released, there was a color cast on the SDI path and the post was a minefield. Firmware updates and better support from DaVinci and Adobe have changed all that. The CinemaDMG raw looks different in different applications (different stocks come out different with different lab processes... that's the point...). The first year was a bit of a development process but the workflow and strange quirks have been ironed out. This is a very helpful blog: http://a-camdii.tumblr.com/ Sound and 60 fps are the only remaining hurdles.

Please no one get too upset over this little thread hijack. Red should exist meaningfully amongst other cameras. If 35mm and 16 coexisted than 4K and uncompressed, filmic 1080 should be able to as well.

 

[James T Mather]

The ikonoscop footage looks stunning - well exposed, I'd confuse it with film - no question. It's got an incredible colour richness that I miss from the film days and the highlight roll off seems very organic and soft - it exhibits that "pushed back" quality I've been whinging on about recently (maybe it's a CCD thing). Zero rolling shutter issues either. Can it take follow focuses and mount on an O'connor head? (the real question is: could you shoot a feature with it as your main A unit camera? Or are they unreliable etc?)


I mean, wow : http://vimeo.com/32776261