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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Rehoused Hasselblad lenses for 8k?

Yes of course, and we use H lenses with our Aptus digital back which is 56 x 36 mm sensor size all the time. There also is is a 53.7 x 40.3 mm sensor version, so don´t expect any problems on this side. I still feel while being very sharp they are lacking soul. And remember there are lenses that haven´t been "opened" to third party back manufacturers and rumor was due to them relaying on heavy lens correction processed in the hasselblad backs / software combo.
This obviously does not apply to their C-Series (Zeiss) lenses.

Cheers

Ulf
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
guessing you already paid for 8K upgrade.
Btw Alexa 65 is wider than Hasselblad Medium format.
Click to expand...

No, I'm a fan of Red cameras from the beginning but I hope in the future! btw the ccd hasselblad's should be bigger than the alexa65 sensor, otherwise they made a very big mistake with their lens choice :D
 
i recently got a couple of nice zeiss hasselblads and i have to say they are really beautiful, almost 360 degree focus throw, smooth de-click iris(half clicks if you want, there is a switch) and they feel like a real substantial piece of equipment in terms of build quality. very impressed! thanks nick for the tip!
 
The lenses designed for medium format film cameras, like the Hasselblad/Zeiss FE series, would not be a great choice for weapon 8k sensor.
Those lenses were designed for a huge image circle - yes, you are using the sweet spot of the lens, but the lens was optimized to cover a much larger area and a image plane that did not include cover glass/olpf.

The lenses IB/E is rehousing for the Alexa 65 are from the HCD and HC series, optimized by Fujinon for the Hasseblad digital back, a significantly smaller image circle and a digitial sensor path

Compare the charts

Hasselblad/Zeiss FE 50mm 2.8 - MF

vs

Hasselblad/Fujinon HC II 50mm 3.5 - MF Digital Back

vs

Zeiss Otus 55mm 1.4 - 35mm


The MTF 40 of the FE 50mm plunges below 40 starting at just 10mm from center - when stopped down to 5.6

The HC 50mm stays above 60 until just about 20mm from the center at 2.8

and the Otus stays above 60 through 20mm

Sure the FE covers the sensor, but its barely above 40 at the center of lens wide open, try an FE on a 5Ds R for a glimpse of how it might look on weapon 8k - its soft across the entire frame.
 
Not regarding resolution as I also already pointed out, and for sure not as multi purpose set, but the older lenses still render a beautiful image.

Cheers

Ulf
 
Ulf Krentz said:
I´m afraid you´re right, but I´d rather like to see the pixel race stop at 9K with larger pixels - more than enough for every still image. Would love the bigger sensor size though.
Click to expand...

From looking at RED and weapon 8k one can think that the race for pixel density will halt for at least a little time. As the weapon 8k has the same pixel density as the 6k dragon. And I think that makes sense the pixel density in dragon does not really come short of to many lenses in the S35 range and up so I think the density race is at it´s end for a while. And my guess is that now there will better and better photosites of about the same density as dragon and then ofcourse there will be more of them, 8K, 10k and so on.

As if the density stays at the level it is in dragon even for more large format cameras there is always the option to use them also as smaller sensors, FF35 and so on as most of those lenses does not resolve more than 6k.

Also,

To me the jump to midformat lenses is a bit early. For dragon 6k it´s total overkill and more something to experiment with for looks, as the loss of stops and resolution is quite big. Even for 8k Weapon there is not much logic in using mid format lenses. It´s possible and they are not to expansive to get and so on. But FF35 lenses will for the most part outpreform mid format lenses on the 8k dragon. Some here state that the really wide FF35 lenses does not cover 8k weapon... well, there are not that many really wide midformat lenses to compare them to, and the longer FF35 lenses dont really have the problem of vingeting in 8k.

So basically I think it´s easier to create quality image with a bigger FOV when using a 8k weapon and a FF35 lens than if using a Midformat lens.
Even if you have to crop off some some to aviod the corners of the FF35 8k image when using really wide FF35 lenses. Alot of FF35 lenses below 20mm will show "corner effects" at 8k but then again you dont find too many midformat lenses in that category.

And the good wide Hasselblad lenses dont come low priced and they are not that fast like this, in comparison to a good FF35 24mm lens...

24mm H: http://www.ebay.com/itm/HASSELBLAD-...-ULTRA-RARE-/181621657837?hash=item2a497e90ed


edit: wha Christopher Seguine says is kind of what I was trying to explain but he did it much better.
 
Christopher*Seguine said:
The lenses designed for medium format film cameras, like the Hasselblad/Zeiss FE series, would not be a great choice for weapon 8k sensor.
Those lenses were designed for a huge image circle - yes, you are using the sweet spot of the lens, but the lens was optimized to cover a much larger area and a image plane that did not include cover glass/olpf.

The lenses IB/E is rehousing for the Alexa 65 are from the HCD and HC series, optimized by Fujinon for the Hasseblad digital back, a significantly smaller image circle and a digitial sensor path

Compare the charts

Hasselblad/Zeiss FE 50mm 2.8 - MF

vs

Hasselblad/Fujinon HC II 50mm 3.5 - MF Digital Back

vs

Zeiss Otus 55mm 1.4 - 35mm


The MTF 40 of the FE 50mm plunges below 40 starting at just 10mm from center - when stopped down to 5.6

The HC 50mm stays above 60 until just about 20mm from the center at 2.8

and the Otus stays above 60 through 20mm

Sure the FE covers the sensor, but its barely above 40 at the center of lens wide open, try an FE on a 5Ds R for a glimpse of how it might look on weapon 8k - its soft across the entire frame.
Click to expand...

Christopher you may be right, but we've used the 50 FE numerous times on RED EPICs (with a Mirex Tilt Shift adapter) and it looks stunning.

it's certainly "sharp enough".

It's worth noting Arri also rehoused the older Hassy CF and FE lenses as well, for a "VINTAGE" set.

But yes...to get FULL VALUE of Medium Format glass...using them on a 65mm sensor would no doubt be ideal.

best
 
Christopher*Seguine said:
The lenses designed for medium format film cameras, like the Hasselblad/Zeiss FE series, would not be a great choice for weapon 8k sensor.
Those lenses were designed for a huge image circle - yes, you are using the sweet spot of the lens, but the lens was optimized to cover a much larger area and a image plane that did not include cover glass/olpf.

The lenses IB/E is rehousing for the Alexa 65 are from the HCD and HC series, optimized by Fujinon for the Hasseblad digital back, a significantly smaller image circle and a digitial sensor path

Compare the charts

Hasselblad/Zeiss FE 50mm 2.8 - MF

vs

Hasselblad/Fujinon HC II 50mm 3.5 - MF Digital Back

vs

Zeiss Otus 55mm 1.4 - 35mm


The MTF 40 of the FE 50mm plunges below 40 starting at just 10mm from center - when stopped down to 5.6

The HC 50mm stays above 60 until just about 20mm from the center at 2.8

and the Otus stays above 60 through 20mm

Sure the FE covers the sensor, but its barely above 40 at the center of lens wide open, try an FE on a 5Ds R for a glimpse of how it might look on weapon 8k - its soft across the entire frame.
Click to expand...

i agree with nick, i got one, tried it on my 5D on a chart at the camera house and it was sharp, it lost a bit with no lens hood, which was actually nice, but tack sharp next to the ultra prime on the alexa. so i bought another one, havent got a chance to chart it, but test focusing on small type in the office its also sharp, but yes, low contrast. i also confirmed some of the rehoused vintage set is actually hasselblad FE lenses…im actually going with F models for a more soft contrast look, but it seems you can alter that by cutting off light to the glass via lens hood, pretty nice control for different situations i think.
 
jordan levy said:
i agree with nick, i got one, tried it on my 5D on a chart at the camera house and it was sharp, it lost a bit with no lens hood, which was actually nice, but tack sharp next to the ultra prime on the alexa. so i bought another one, havent got a chance to chart it, but test focusing on small type in the office its also sharp, but yes, low contrast. i also confirmed some of the rehoused vintage set is actually hasselblad FE lenses…im actually going with F models for a more soft contrast look, but it seems you can alter that by cutting off light to the glass via lens hood, pretty nice control for different situations i think.
Click to expand...

Did you try it with moving camera. and light sources close to the frame. I´m thinking the large image circle will let a lot of spill light into the gate that bounces around in there. So to me it would not be a far fetched guess that it would have more gate flares and such than lenses with a smaller image circle. Wich not need to be a bad thing looks cool at times I think. We got our Trump set just before summer that I have not had the chance to test much myself but they came with some half transparent and also colored iris discs which really gives a low contrast look that also glares differently depending on the light in the scene... which I think looks really cool at times but is quite a bitch to control.
 
Björn Benckert said:
Did you try it with moving camera. and light sources close to the frame. I´m thinking the large image circle will let a lot of spill light into the gate that bounces around in there. So to me it would not be a far fetched guess that it would have more gate flares and such than lenses with a smaller image circle. Wich not need to be a bad thing looks cool at times I think. We got our Trump set just before summer that I have not had the chance to test much myself but they came with some half transparent and also colored iris discs which really gives a low contrast look that also glares differently depending on the light in the scene... which I think looks really cool at times but is quite a bitch to control.
Click to expand...
yes, but just panning through the frame, i dont see how that makes a difference though, the lenses are sharp as hell, i can see still riding a diffusion filter honestly. and yes i have some trumps too, they are fabulous!
 
Nick Morrison said:
Christopher you may be right, but we've used the 50 FE numerous times on RED EPICs (with a Mirex Tilt Shift adapter) and it looks stunning. it's certainly "sharp enough". It's worth noting Arri also rehoused the older Hassy CF and FE lenses as well, for a "VINTAGE" set.
Click to expand...

"Sharp enough" is subjective, plenty sharp for a web video or plenty sharp for 4k DCI film.
Charts are not subjective, you can love the way it looks, or choose it for its character - but is it sharp compared to a 35mm lens equivalent - not really. Your trading even field illumination and lack of distortion for resolution.

jordan levy said:
i agree with nick, i got one, tried it on my 5D on a chart at the camera house and it was sharp, it lost a bit with no lens hood, which was actually nice, but tack sharp next to the ultra prime on the alexa.
Click to expand...

Your comparing a lens from a medium format camera on a 24mp 35mm camera to a 35mm film lens on a 2k camera while looking at it on ? a 1080p monitor? and trying to draw conclusions how it will look on an 8k camera? You can like the image you see but you can't change lens circle, sensor size, and resolution and draw any kind of meaningful conclusion.


The FE lenses were designed for 120 film, an image plane of 56mm x 56mm
a 79mm image circle!!
Weapon is only 40.96 x 21.6.

Alexa 65 is a much much larger sensor, as such it needs much less resolution per mm of glass.
60.60 lp/mm vs Weapon/Dragon which ideally need 100 lp/mm,
a 5ds maxs out at 120.77 lp/mm vs a 5dm3 which only needs 80 lp/mm.


The vintage series for the Alexa 65 are not new, they are the lenses originally rehoused for the Arriflex 765, they made a MPL to XPL adapter. They are not the FE series, its the CFi/CFe series - but dont think the optics changed much.


I haven't really been impressed with any medium format lens I've tried except the Leica S series. A Leica S smart mount for Weapon8k could be interesting, the flange distance works. I'm also curios how the 4k video from the 007 looks, but pretty disappointing that it is only a 4k sensor crop.

Those looking to adapt Contax 645 lenses, a Chinese company makes an electronic adapter to EF or Nikon

Here are some cameras with their pixel pitch and spatial resolution, a lens designed for MF digital back would be more appropriate as the size is much closer to weapon 8k's sensor.


CameraResolutionDimensionsPixel PitchSpatial Resolution
Dragon5um100 lp/mm
Weapon 8k5um100 lp/mm
Alexa 658.25um60.60 lp/mm
Alexa8.90um56.18 lp/mm
5Ds4.14um120.77 lp/mm
A7RII4.56um109.65 lp/mm
5dm36.25um80 lp/mm
645z5.30um94.34 lp/mm
645d6.07um82.37 lp/mm
Leica S0076.00um83.33 lp/mm
H5D-606.00um83.33 lp/mm
H5D-506.00um83.33 lp/mm
H5D-406.00um83.33 lp/mm

[TD="align: right"]6144[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3160[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30.7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15.8[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]8192[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4320[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]40.96[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21.6[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]6560[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3102[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]54.12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.58[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]3144[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2198[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.98[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18.15[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]8688[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5792[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]36[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]7902[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5304[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]36[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]5760[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3850[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]36[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]8256[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6192[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]43.8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]32.8[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]7264[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5440[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]44[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]33[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]7500[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]8956[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6708[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]53.7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]40.2[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]8176[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6132[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]49.1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]36.7[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]7304[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5478[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]43.8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]32.9[/TD]
 
i understand what you are saying mostly, but you are a little all over the place. you dont like MF lenses, but recommend a contax 645 adapter(so you like contax 645 lenses are they better in your opinion then hasselblad?) and then you say you like leica S lenses…
ok, so are you saying full frame glass at all focal length will cover the 8k weapon? as you posted it seems that the image circle of FF cameras are smaller then the image circle of the 8k weapon.
i guess your conclusion is they will work well with an alexa 65mm, hence why they made their lenses with hasselblad, but you dont think they are good for the 8k weapon.
my conclusion is if they look good and they are a little over compensating, for maybe even a bigger future of 70mm and vista vision reds and getting longer years out of your glass, then i think its a good thing. and you can hardly go wrong with beautiful older zeiss glass, before they got clinical.
 
Christopher*Seguine said:
"Sharp enough" is subjective, plenty sharp for a web video or plenty sharp for 4k DCI film.
Charts are not subjective, you can love the way it looks, or choose it for its character - but is it sharp compared to a 35mm lens equivalent - not really. Your trading even field illumination and lack of distortion for resolution.



Your comparing a lens from a medium format camera on a 24mp 35mm camera to a 35mm film lens on a 2k camera while looking at it on ? a 1080p monitor? and trying to draw conclusions how it will look on an 8k camera? You can like the image you see but you can't change lens circle, sensor size, and resolution and draw any kind of meaningful conclusion.


The FE lenses were designed for 120 film, an image plane of 56mm x 56mm
a 79mm image circle!!
Weapon is only 40.96 x 21.6.

Alexa 65 is a much much larger sensor, as such it needs much less resolution per mm of glass.
60.60 lp/mm vs Weapon/Dragon which ideally need 100 lp/mm,
a 5ds maxs out at 120.77 lp/mm vs a 5dm3 which only needs 80 lp/mm.


The vintage series for the Alexa 65 are not new, they are the lenses originally rehoused for the Arriflex 765, they made a MPL to XPL adapter. They are not the FE series, its the CFi/CFe series - but dont think the optics changed much.


I haven't really been impressed with any medium format lens I've tried except the Leica S series. A Leica S smart mount for Weapon8k could be interesting, the flange distance works. I'm also curios how the 4k video from the 007 looks, but pretty disappointing that it is only a 4k sensor crop.

Those looking to adapt Contax 645 lenses, a Chinese company makes an electronic adapter to EF or Nikon

Here are some cameras with their pixel pitch and spatial resolution, a lens designed for MF digital back would be more appropriate as the size is much closer to weapon 8k's sensor.


CameraResolutionDimensionsPixel PitchSpatial Resolution
Dragon5um100 lp/mm
Weapon 8k5um100 lp/mm
Alexa 658.25um60.60 lp/mm
Alexa8.90um56.18 lp/mm
5Ds4.14um120.77 lp/mm
A7RII4.56um109.65 lp/mm
5dm36.25um80 lp/mm
645z5.30um94.34 lp/mm
645d6.07um82.37 lp/mm
Leica S0076.00um83.33 lp/mm
H5D-606.00um83.33 lp/mm
H5D-506.00um83.33 lp/mm
H5D-406.00um83.33 lp/mm

[TD="align: right"]6144[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3160[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30.7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15.8[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]8192[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4320[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]40.96[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21.6[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]6560[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3102[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]54.12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.58[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]3144[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2198[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.98[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18.15[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]8688[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5792[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]36[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]7902[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5304[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]36[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]5760[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3850[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]36[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]8256[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6192[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]43.8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]32.8[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]7264[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5440[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]44[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]33[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]7500[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]8956[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6708[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]53.7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]40.2[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]8176[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6132[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]49.1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]36.7[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]7304[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5478[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]43.8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]32.9[/TD]
Click to expand...

Yes, but didn't Christopher Probst say that Dragon was outresolved at 100lp/mm? Which is approx a Super Speed wide open?

It would appear having 5K packed into S35 for Dragon (vs 2.8K for Alexa) is that it's much easier to outresolve...

We intermixed a Hassy 50mm FE with Contax Primes and a Nikkor 200 f2, and once we got into the grade, the Hassy looked JUST AS SHARP.

You can see it on this campaign here:

http://www.smallgiant.tv/#/monument/

The Hassy 50 FE is featured on the SECOND TO LAST shot in very promo, as the cast walks towards camera (that's a tilt shifted shot).

Looked AMAZING. And was certainly "sharp enough" for broadcast.

I'm not saying SHARP GLASS isn't great. Of course it is, and has it's place. But we've certainly noticed the RED ecosystem is quite forgiving of older glass with character.
 
Without getting too exotic with the math and dealing with diagonals or root2 blah di blahs... If you just look at the horizontal resolution, a 5 micron photo site pitch in Dragon sensors IS 100 lp/mm...

Look at the numbers.

For 6K, horizontall that is 6144 photosites across the 30.7mm width. Now to have a LINE PAIR, you need TWO photosites. One to read a black line, and another to read a white line. LINE PAIR. So 6144/2 is 3072... Therefore LINE PAIRS PER MILIMETER would be 3072/30.7mm = 100 lp/mm...

I don't think this photosite (pixe pitch) is mere coincidence... It's in a pretty sweet spot resolution wise. I'm still loving Dragon sensors in my Weapon and I'm sticking to it!
 
Christopher Probst said:
Without getting too exotic with the math and dealing with diagonals or root2 blah di blahs... If you just look at the horizontal resolution, a 5 micron photo site pitch in Dragon sensors IS 100 lp/mm...

Look at the numbers.

For 6K, horizontall that is 6144 photosites across the 30.7mm width. Now to have a LINE PAIR, you need TWO photosites. One to read a black line, and another to read a white line. LINE PAIR. So 6144/2 is 3072... Therefore LINE PAIRS PER MILIMETER would be 3072/30.7mm = 100 lp/mm...

I don't think this photosite (pixe pitch) is mere coincidence... It's in a pretty sweet spot resolution wise. I'm still loving Dragon sensors in my Weapon and I'm sticking to it!
Click to expand...
soooo…we were just discussing if you think an old hasselblad would be fine to use with the weapons sensor(specifically 8k), or are we loosing something as someone suggested. planning for the future!
 
To answer your queston with another question... Why are people spending 10s of thousands of dollars rehousing old Baltars and Speed Panchros? Are those lenses delivering 100 lp/mm? Doubtful.

My only question on those lenses is, why bother with a lens with an image circle not even designed to cover Super 35? Plan that for your future!
 
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